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TOPIC: Contemplating Gregor's Tome

Contemplating Gregor's Tome 9 months 2 weeks ago #1

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You know what? Next year, I'd like to see separate threads for discussing each contentious token (or set, or transmute path) because things get swallowed up in mammoth threads like "2019 UR Token Images."
Those threads should be for comments on the set as a whole, or the images specifically {"needs hands" ... "misspelled" "Please clarify wording" etc.)

I say this because I've kinda skipped over all the excellent comments on Gregor's Tome while looking for feedback on other tokens. Now, even if I posted there, I'm afraid it would be washed away in the flood. So, here goes, in its own thread:

I think this token is a fantastic way to honor someone who was vital to Jeff's history, and without whom we might not have this game we love, today.

In its first incarnation (on the L&L forum) the token read, "Auto-succeed at skill checks & +1 to healing, damage spells, & polymorph attacks."

There was quite a lot of feedback about how tokens shouldn't bypass the classes' core challenge (despite the fact that the Bowl of Spirit Sight already does this, and so does the Rod of Persuasion)

It was updated to say: "+2 to healing, damage spells & polymorph attacks."

From a mechanical standpoint, I am generally against slotless tokens, because they are automatically BIS, provide no "interesting choices" and contribute directly to power-creep. For this token, however, I can see an exception being made in honour of its namesake. (Much the same way as Carter's tome.)

One of the things I really liked, tho, was how the "Auto-succeed" didn't actually introduce any power creep by itself. It just brought newer players (or players with anxiety about skill tests) up to the level of players who've memorized their skill tests. For those who skip challenges because they prioritize time in the dungeon, this gives them a chance to spend a little cash to put them back on the level of others. Very cool.

I think that, even without the +1, An auto-succeed token would make a pretty solid UR.

Think of it this way:

The odds of a newbie getting one in their 10-pack is .0005% (It's 1 in 20 URs, and 1 in 100 chance for a "00" pack) ... in other words, it's probably not going to take away a new player's fun. And any fun which it takes away is probably mitigated by the thrill of a cool new UR, and the fact that they can use it later to play a different class which they don't know the skill test for.

For long-term players who've memorized the skill check, this is a way to squeeze a few more seconds out of a dungeon room if they want to. it provides flexibility, if they choose to buy one, or are lucky enough to get one as a "00."

For players who avoid specific classes due to the skill check: this opens up a whole new side of TD! I think that's fantastic!

But apparently others didn't think so... so the token was changed. It's now adding to power creep twice as much as it did before, without adding anything cool or different to the game.

I would love to see it return to its original form... or even to a simple "Auto-succeed" with no +1 bonus.

I'd like it because it has minimal impact on power-creep that way, and is still a great token for so many different groups of players.

Thoughts?
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Contemplating Gregor's Tome 9 months 2 weeks ago #2

I agree 100% .

I have avoided skill checks and me.orizations classes for all the reasons you mentioned except anxiety.

If we did return. I would say we should take bard off it. I think we need to make so that bardic knowledge is "random" not all encompassing.
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Contemplating Gregor's Tome 9 months 2 weeks ago #3

I had eventually adopted a stance that skill-bypass checks are fine. It takes away a little bit of the mechanics, but overall not egregious.

If it did return, I think it should absolutely remove the Focus part. What you say about BIS is 100% true, and as soon as this puppy went OOP, its price would balloon.

Part of me doesn't like that it only provides individuals the ability to bypass said checks if they-

A ) spend $100 or more
B ) are around the game this year or next year

Where's the love for folks with anxiety who discover our great game in 2021 and beyond?

Would it be possible to make Gregor's a timeless UR choice? I'd be on board in an instant if it were always a choosable UR from now on. Also, as a very special tribute token it would be cool if it were timeless.

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Contemplating Gregor's Tome 9 months 2 weeks ago #4

Barring the forever-choice, I think it should split up the classes and add something class-specific in, starting with the Cleric class.

This would help control demand and make it a little bit cooler for each class.

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Contemplating Gregor's Tome 9 months 2 weeks ago #5

YES! 100%

It seems like most of the people who argued against it don’t even play casters, but I could be wrong.

I hate to say it, but I really dislike the latest UR version. It’s boring and pointless and... everything you said. It was the best token in the set, IMO, and now it’s not even in my top three favorite.

And it’s way more OP than any version of Eldritch Kilt that’s ever been discussed, except maybe the facetious “pick +8”

If the first version is too much, but I don’t think it is, I’d WAY rather lose the focus and keep the autopass.

Either way, polymorph should come off.
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Last edit: by Brad Mortensen.

Contemplating Gregor's Tome 9 months 2 weeks ago #6

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Raven, did you see my suggestion? Namely that the Token be an xor prospect. Auto-succeed, or try it and get the bonus. What would you say to that?

Specifically it was:
Gregor's Tome of Focus
Auto-succeed skill checks OR +1 to spell healing damage and +1 to spell heal damage for successful skill check.
Cleric, Druid, WIzard

That way, no check spells get +1. Otherwise it is:
Try and fail - +1
Auto-succeed - +3 (default value)
Try and succeed - +5


Also, I am still advocating a Tome slot for all Tomes, Libriums, Manuals, and Book type tokens.
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Last edit: by Xavon.

Contemplating Gregor's Tome 9 months 2 weeks ago #7

Raven wrote: You know what? Next year, I'd like to see separate threads for discussing each contentious token (or set, or transmute path) because things get swallowed up in mammoth threads like "2019 UR Token Images."
Those threads should be for comments on the set as a whole, or the images specifically {"needs hands" ... "misspelled" "Please clarify wording" etc.)

I say this because I've kinda skipped over all the excellent comments on Gregor's Tome while looking for feedback on other tokens. Now, even if I posted there, I'm afraid it would be washed away in the flood. So, here goes, in its own thread:

I think this token is a fantastic way to honor someone who was vital to Jeff's history, and without whom we might not have this game we love, today.

In its first incarnation (on the L&L forum) the token read, "Auto-succeed at skill checks & +1 to healing, damage spells, & polymorph attacks."

There was quite a lot of feedback about how tokens shouldn't bypass the classes' core challenge (despite the fact that the Bowl of Spirit Sight already does this, and so does the Rod of Persuasion)

It was updated to say: "+2 to healing, damage spells & polymorph attacks."

From a mechanical standpoint, I am generally against slotless tokens, because they are automatically BIS, provide no "interesting choices" and contribute directly to power-creep. For this token, however, I can see an exception being made in honour of its namesake. (Much the same way as Carter's tome.)

One of the things I really liked, tho, was how the "Auto-succeed" didn't actually introduce any power creep by itself. It just brought newer players (or players with anxiety about skill tests) up to the level of players who've memorized their skill tests. For those who skip challenges because they prioritize time in the dungeon, this gives them a chance to spend a little cash to put them back on the level of others. Very cool.

I think that, even without the +1, An auto-succeed token would make a pretty solid UR.

Think of it this way:

The odds of a newbie getting one in their 10-pack is .0005% (It's 1 in 20 URs, and 1 in 100 chance for a "00" pack) ... in other words, it's probably not going to take away a new player's fun. And any fun which it takes away is probably mitigated by the thrill of a cool new UR, and the fact that they can use it later to play a different class which they don't know the skill test for.

For long-term players who've memorized the skill check, this is a way to squeeze a few more seconds out of a dungeon room if they want to. it provides flexibility, if they choose to buy one, or are lucky enough to get one as a "00."

For players who avoid specific classes due to the skill check: this opens up a whole new side of TD! I think that's fantastic!

But apparently others didn't think so... so the token was changed. It's now adding to power creep twice as much as it did before, without adding anything cool or different to the game.

I would love to see it return to its original form... or even to a simple "Auto-succeed" with no +1 bonus.

I'd like it because it has minimal impact on power-creep that way, and is still a great token for so many different groups of players.

Thoughts?


I agree with you. I do like the idea of plus one but simply because I’m greedy. :)
Also I don’t think anyone else has addressed yet the ability for people to try out different character classes without having to stress over memorizing a new set of beads or skill checks
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Contemplating Gregor's Tome 9 months 2 weeks ago #8

I'd be fine with the original form. Auto Succeed and +1 focus.

It was a must have at +2 focus. (Not to mention the +3 incarnation...) A maybe at Auto Succeed and +1. A no at just Auto Succeed.

I don't play enough skill check classes to make Auto Succeed a priority.

Its a special token. Let it be special.
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Contemplating Gregor's Tome 9 months 2 weeks ago #9

Bob Chasan wrote: Also I don’t think anyone else has addressed yet the ability for people to try out different character classes without having to stress over memorizing a new set of beads or skill checks


That point and several others were raised. Some people just weren’t having it. They preferred the OP slotless focus regardless. I still don’t understand why
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Contemplating Gregor's Tome 9 months 2 weeks ago #10

I really liked the idea of an Auto-succeed token. Greedily I liked the +1 focus as a healing based Druid - but just an Auto Succeed makes it very interesting for a player like me that ends up outfitting about half the party.

I'd love to have a token to loan out to new players on Pickup runs where someone is nervous about the tests or is playing a class they've never tried before. It adds a level of comfort for trying out new stuff.

Hopefully a token like that comes out sometime in the Future.

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Contemplating Gregor's Tome 9 months 2 weeks ago #11

Well, the advantage of going to a auto pass only token would mean I can save myself the effort of picking It up. Slotless focus token is immensely valuable. Buying a token that makes a class less interesting to play is no draw to me at all.

However, I can see the argument for The time savings aspect. In this case, my preference would be something like this :

Take a skill check. If you pass, auto pass all skill checks for remainder of room and gain +2 to heal and damage spells. If you fail, auto fail all skill checks for remainder of room and get -2 to heal and damage spells.

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Contemplating Gregor's Tome 9 months 2 weeks ago #12

I'm happy with a focus bonus but would really just like the auto succeed more. If in the next few years we are going to address the unused stats I feel all of the focus bonuses will not allow int to boost spell damage. It would be a great opportunity for the auto succeed this year.
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