TOPIC: Eldritch and UR Kilt.....Everyone happy?

I would be ok with that. It is better than the current solution. And then nobody would have a reason NOT to transmute it (except collectors).

Arnold wrote: Matthew Hayward's idea has a ton of merit. I think it would make the least amount of people unhappy.

But right now, the Strength kilters are in a precarious position. +4 STR, +5 HP is sure as hell better than what's being proposing for them. They'd net lose 5 life. And they'd lose access to a +6 kilt.

It's quickly becoming - "Nerf the STR so that DEX and CON can be happy".

I honestly don't care either way. Just going to wait to see the next revision.

As someone who uses strength all the time, I truly hope we are able to get the UR kilt down to a +4.

In a relatively new slot with less competition, +6 Str would be a gigantic upgrade from the currently best available +0 in that slot.

When the Gloves of the Brute were printed, Mithral Gauntlets had been around for awhile, so we were only going from +4 to +5.
When Girdle of Frost Giant Strength was printed, that was +2 over Hill Giant Strength.

+4 may actually be too good.

And STR could use a little Nerfing.

Monk and Barbarian builds can get to Strength near 50 already I believe.

MasterED wrote: The printed kilts netted a +2 effect (+6, -4) and you (Wade) suggested a removing that negative & making it an Eldritch component, and giving build diversity in 1 token. I personally feel that is too powerful. Luckily I don't have to convince anyone.

Think of it this way. Imagine you had to transmute the UR kilts in to only 1 token:

• An Eldritch +6 CON
• An Eldritch +6 DEX
• An Eldritch +6 STR (or whatever it turns out to be)

Clearly you would need 9 UR to make all three so there is definitely value in a universal token. There is clearly value in an Eldritch piece.

I think you should pick 2 (not all 3). I am willing to sacrifice some stats for the other two powers.

Ed

PS - if you didn't get my vote, no I would not be happy with +4/+6/+6.

So it’s my understanding you’d be happy with pick +4 and +5HP, and that that is the sweet spot.

So +6 CON -1 FORT is fine (which is EXACTLY THE SAME as +4 CON +5 HP, at least until Gawd-forbid we get a token with a min CON requirement), but that extra +1 FORT pushes it into the realm of insanity.

Noted.

So let’s just make it -1 FORT, and +4/+6/+6 and we’re all good

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Arnold wrote: Matthew Hayward's idea has a ton of merit. I think it would make the least amount of people unhappy.

But right now, the Strength kilters are in a precarious position. +4 STR, +5 HP is sure as hell better than what's being proposing for them. They'd net lose 5 life. And they'd lose access to a +6 kilt.

It's quickly becoming - "Nerf the STR so that DEX and CON can be happy".

I honestly don't care either way. Just going to wait to see the next revision.

As someone who uses strength all the time, I truly hope we are able to get the UR kilt down to a +4.

In a relatively new slot with less competition, +6 Str would be a gigantic upgrade from the currently best available +0 in that slot.

When the Gloves of the Brute were printed, Mithral Gauntlets had been around for awhile, so we were only going from +4 to +5.
When Girdle of Frost Giant Strength was printed, that was +2 over Hill Giant Strength.

+4 may actually be too good.

And STR could use a little Nerfing.

Monk and Barbarian builds can get to Strength near 50 already I believe.

Just playing Devil's advocate here, but +6 Con was absolutely absurd and unheard of as well. And in a pants slot which had never boosted Con either.

I have no idea if +3/+3 breaks the camel's back.

I'm just happy to be along for the ride and to transmute my first Eldritch.

What if you could transmute the Kilt into 3 different versions? Either a +4 STR Kilt, a +5 DEX Kilt or a +6 CON Kilt? No other benefit but the Eldritch. So give people one of those options at time of transmute. And if they wanted all three they would need to do three different transmutes. Just a thought.

Here's my take on it:

If the +6 Str / -3 Dex / -3 Con Kilt had been presented first in the series, people would have argued that it was OP.
And there's a good chance they'd have been right.

The only reason it looks appropriate right now is if we compare it to the other 2 Kilts which came before it.

I think the UR needs to be toned down, and +4 / -2 / -2 feels appropriate. It keeps the progression more-or-less in line with the other Kilts, but puts a damper on what is arguably the single greatest contributor to Power Creep: the ever increasing STR gap.

So, if we start with that, and then look at ways to build an Eldritch Kilt which is arguably better than the sum of its components, Wade's proposed Eldritch Kilt seems on point. There may be other good options as well. I don't know.

I think the “build flexibility” is a non-issue. In order to get the flexibility of the transmute, you have to already have three different URs, which together give you the exact same flexibility. In fact, an argument could be made that transmuting the kilts loses flexibility, because you no longer have the option of loaning out the two you don’t use to your friends.

So, I know other have mentioned parts of this before. But's my full take:

Let's look at the rings:
Each individual ring gives -5 damage from one element, and 2 retribution of the same.
The Eldritch ring gives -10 from all four elements, and 3 Eldritch retribution.
The DR is merged, and then doubled. The retribution damage is a bit more unclear, but if one considers merging the four elements to be making them Eldritch (since that bypasses all resistances, immunities, DR, etc.) then one can say it is merged and then increased by 150%

Let's look at the boots:
the individual boots+3 of an elemental damage to one type of attack, except 2 handed weapons which get +5 of one element
The Eldritch Boots give +5 Eldritch to all attack types. Again, hard to judge, but if one uses the previous merging criteria, then the are merged (with a bit extra) and then spreading them across all damage types could be considered doubled or even tripled, especially given the current focus on forcing switching between melee and range.

So by that formula, if the Kilt (as it sits) should be merged and doubled, we get:
STR: -2 -0 +6 = +4 -> +8
DEX: +6 -4 -3 = -1 -> -2
CON: -2 +6 -3 = +1 -> +2

Now I suggested 4, 2 and 2 (choice of what gets the four), which is the equivalent of take +4 off of STR and moving it to DEX, and then letting the play pick which one is the +4 as 'compensation' or balance for the highest value being lower than the base kilts.

I know it doesn't help the people that need the +6 DEX, but it is closest to the prior pattern.

Edit:
Even if the proposed STR kilt were reduced to +4, -2, -2, the end result is the same:
STR: -2 -0 +4 = +2 -> +4
DEX: +6 -4 -2 = -0 -> -0
CON: -2 +6 -2 = +2 -> +4

so move 2 from STR or CON into DEX and voila...

Rob F wrote: What if you could transmute the Kilt into 3 different versions? Either a +4 STR Kilt, a +5 DEX Kilt or a +6 CON Kilt? No other benefit but the Eldritch. So give people one of those options at time of transmute. And if they wanted all three they would need to do three different transmutes. Just a thought.

I would make 3, although I think we would need to make it +6 Dex, for the clerics..

Xavon wrote: So, I know other have mentioned parts of this before. But's my full take:

Let's look at the rings:
Each individual ring gives -5 damage from one element, and 2 retribution of the same.
The Eldritch ring gives -10 from all four elements, and 3 Eldritch retribution.
The DR is merged, and then doubled. The retribution damage is a bit more unclear, but if one considers merging the four elements to be making them Eldritch (since that bypasses all resistances, immunities, DR, etc.) then one can say it is merged and then increased by 150%

Let's look at the boots:
the individual boots+3 of an elemental damage to one type of attack, except 2 handed weapons which get +5 of one element
The Eldritch Boots give +5 Eldritch to all attack types. Again, hard to judge, but if one uses the previous merging criteria, then the are merged (with a bit extra) and then spreading them across all damage types could be considered doubled or even tripled, especially given the current focus on forcing switching between melee and range.

So by that formula, if the Kilt (as it sits) should be merged and doubled, we get:
STR: -2 -0 +6 = +4 -> +8
DEX: +6 -4 -3 = -1 -> -2
CON: -2 +6 -3 = +1 -> +2

Now I suggested 4, 2 and 2 (choice of what gets the four), which is the equivalent of take +4 off of STR and moving it to DEX, and then letting the play pick which one is the +4 as 'compensation' or balance for the highest value being lower than the base kilts.

I know it doesn't help the people that need the +6 DEX, but it is closest to the prior pattern.

Edit:
Even if the proposed STR kilt were reduced to +4, -2, -2, the end result is the same:
STR: -2 -0 +4 = +2 -> +4
DEX: +6 -4 -2 = -0 -> -0
CON: -2 +6 -2 = +2 -> +4

so move 2 from STR or CON into DEX and voila...

I see the math, but I don't agree dmg reduction can be weighted the same as stat bumps.

I would be thrilled with t
this 4/6/6 pick sooner solution and make at least 2 for my wife and I, as is were keeping our tavernbanes.

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Rob F wrote: What if you could transmute the Kilt into 3 different versions? Either a +4 STR Kilt, a +5 DEX Kilt or a +6 CON Kilt? No other benefit but the Eldritch. So give people one of those options at time of transmute. And if they wanted all three they would need to do three different transmutes. Just a thought.

I would make 3, although I think we would need to make it +6 Dex, for the clerics..

I disagree. I don't think we should be looking at this from a class standpoint at all, rather, which stats typically matter more in game. I'd say in order you have str, dex, then con.

Clerics can still build their hammer if they want. Just slot the appropriate Tokens.