TOPIC: Eldritch and UR Kilt.....Everyone happy?

Is there anyone out there who wouldn't be happy with

1. Change UR Kilt to +4 Str/-2 Dex/-2Con (Could be +5 Str/-2 or 3 Dex/-2 or 3 Con, though this may be too good)
2. Make Eld Kilt +4 (or 5, again, possibly too good) Str OR +6 Dex OR +6 Con

We can't change the previously printed, and arguably overpowered, kilts of tavernbane and fatherbane. At least unless we feel they are as bad as LoDS and CoS, which I would see a lot of disagreement around.

We CAN change this year's kilt.

I think most, if not all, would agree that strength is valued by more classes than Dex or Con.

I think that we do not HAVE to print a +6 strength kilt as a UR, and we probably shouldn't. Even if everyone was expecting it because the last two kilts were +6 to the primary stat. Sometimes there is a curve ahead and you don't know its coming.

I think anyone who opens a +4 Str kilt as a UR would be very happy with it.

Those who are arguing for the eldritch kilt to be strictly better than any of its pieces would be satisfied, as the Eldritch kilt would still be better by virtue of having no negatives. And being part of the eldritch set.

No one would take a stat loss or HP loss off their currently equipped kilt

Anything I'm missing here?

As I mentioned before, I'm good with the +5 version of that. I could live with the +4. As long as both the UR and Transmute kilts had the same St value.

I wonder if Jeff's already locked the final artwork in.

Moved over from the other post.

Arnold wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:
Anything I'm missing here?

I think the only thing we're missing is TPTB don't want us to have +6 of any stat on an Eldritch kilt.

I certainly see the merits of the argument, but my opinion doesn't mean jack if those above think +4 is where it was supposed to be this whole time.

Arnold wrote: Moved over from the other post.

Arnold wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:
Anything I'm missing here?

I think the only thing we're missing is TPTB don't want us to have +6 of any stat on an Eldritch kilt.

I certainly see the merits of the argument, but my opinion doesn't mean jack if those above think +4 is where it was supposed to be this whole time.

It’s sometimes hard to design a token. It’s much harder to design three at once, and that’s what this is.

I’d use DEX and be happy. Shelly would use the STR and be happy. No reason I can see a CON user wouldn’t be happy.

But you’re right. None of that matters if Jeff isn’t happy.

Wade Schwendemann wrote: Is there anyone out there who wouldn't be happy with

1. Change UR Kilt to +4 Str/-2 Dex/-2Con
2. Make Eld Kilt +4 Str OR +6 Dex OR +6 Con

We can't change the previously

This is my preferred result.*

There are existing: +5 STR, and +7 DEX Relics in more powerful** slots (waist, torso).

Stat flexibility and eldritch set bonus is also worth something.

* The UR STR Kilt could also be: +4 STR, -2 CON (compare with rare Fiendish Charm) or +4 STR, -1 DEX (compare with uncommon Shirt of Brawn)

** I mean, historically waist/hands are the best melee booster and torso the best defensive slot.

Arnold wrote: Moved over from the other post.

Arnold wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:
Anything I'm missing here?

I think the only thing we're missing is TPTB don't want us to have +6 of any stat on an Eldritch kilt.

I certainly see the merits of the argument, but my opinion doesn't mean jack if those above think +4 is where it was supposed to be this whole time.

I don't know if we know that, or if we assume it, with our evidence being the 3rd iteration of the kilt?

If that is the case, then all this is moot.

I'm not convinced TPTB feel that way though.

I think we've gone round and round on this, and I think we MAY have found a way to keep most of the people as happy as possible, which will result in more kilts being made, which, I assume (there's that word) would make TPTB happy, as it means more token sales.

Wade Schwendemann wrote: Is there anyone out there who wouldn't be happy with

1. Change UR Kilt to +4 Str/-2 Dex/-2Con (Could be +5 Str/-2 or 3 Dex/-2 or 3 Con, though this may be too good)
2. Make Eld Kilt +4 (or 5, again, possibly too good) Str OR +6 Dex OR +6 Con

I’d be happy with this and agree with the rationale.

If people are worried about the UR strength kilt being unfair with less than +6 str (because of precedent set by the other kilts), I wouldn’t mind if we were even easier on the negatives to compensate for reducing the positives. That is, something like +4 (or 5) str and -2 (or 3) to either dex OR con (but not both).

One of the reasons I think +5 St or +6 to one of the other two should be fine is that an earlier version of the transmute was +5 to any of the three. This would only entail an additional +1 to the Dex & Con options, which most seem to feel are weaker than St anyway.

The printed kilts netted a +2 effect (+6, -4) and you (Wade) suggested a removing that negative & making it an Eldritch component, and giving build diversity in 1 token. I personally feel that is too powerful. Luckily I don't have to convince anyone.

Think of it this way. Imagine you had to transmute the UR kilts in to only 1 token:

• An Eldritch +6 CON
• An Eldritch +6 DEX
• An Eldritch +6 STR (or whatever it turns out to be)

Clearly you would need 9 UR to make all three so there is definitely value in a universal token. There is clearly value in an Eldritch piece.

I think you should pick 2 (not all 3). I am willing to sacrifice some stats for the other two powers.

Ed

PS - if you didn't get my vote, no I would not be happy with +4/+6/+6.

Wade Schwendemann wrote: Is there anyone out there who wouldn't be happy with

1. Change UR Kilt to +4 Str/-2 Dex/-2Con (Could be +5 Str/-2 or 3 Dex/-2 or 3 Con, though this may be too good)
2. Make Eld Kilt +4 (or 5, again, possibly too good) Str OR +6 Dex OR +6 Con

We can't change the previously printed, and arguably overpowered, kilts of tavernbane and fatherbane. At least unless we feel they are as bad as LoDS and CoS, which I would see a lot of disagreement around.

We CAN change this year's kilt.

I think most, if not all, would agree that strength is valued by more classes than Dex or Con.

I think that we do not HAVE to print a +6 strength kilt as a UR, and we probably shouldn't. Even if everyone was expecting it because the last two kilts were +6 to the primary stat. Sometimes there is a curve ahead and you don't know its coming.

I think anyone who opens a +4 Str kilt as a UR would be very happy with it.

Those who are arguing for the eldritch kilt to be strictly better than any of its pieces would be satisfied, as the Eldritch kilt would still be better by virtue of having no negatives. And being part of the eldritch set.

No one would take a stat loss or HP loss off their currently equipped kilt

Anything I'm missing here?

I would accept it. But no, I would not be 'happy' with it.

Matthew Hayward's idea has a ton of merit. I think it would make the least amount of people unhappy.

But right now, the Strength kilters are in a precarious position. +4 STR, +5 HP is sure as hell better than what's being proposing for them. They'd net lose 5 life. And they'd lose access to a +6 kilt.

It's quickly becoming - "Nerf the STR so that DEX and CON can be happy".

I honestly don't care either way. Just going to wait to see the next revision.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Arnold wrote: Moved over from the other post.

Arnold wrote:
I think the only thing we're missing is TPTB don't want us to have +6 of any stat on an Eldritch kilt.

I certainly see the merits of the argument, but my opinion doesn't mean jack if those above think +4 is where it was supposed to be this whole time.

It’s sometimes hard to design a token. It’s much harder to design three at once, and that’s what this is.

I’d use DEX and be happy. Shelly would use the STR and be happy. No reason I can see a CON user wouldn’t be happy.

But you’re right. None of that matters if Jeff isn’t happy.

Boilerplate wrote:
I’d be happy with this and agree with the rationale.

If people are worried about the UR strength kilt being unfair with less than +6 str (because of precedent set by the other kilts), I wouldn’t mind if we were even easier on the negatives to compensate for reducing the positives. That is, something like +4 (or 5) str and -2 (or 3) to either dex OR con (but not both).

Xavon wrote:
I would accept it. But no, I would not be 'happy' with it.

MasterED wrote: The printed kilts netted a +2 effect (+6, -4) and you (Wade) suggested a removing that negative & making it an Eldritch component, and giving build diversity in 1 token. I personally feel that is too powerful. Luckily I don't have to convince anyone.

Think of it this way. Imagine you had to transmute the UR kilts in to only 1 token:

• An Eldritch +6 CON
• An Eldritch +6 DEX
• An Eldritch +6 STR (or whatever it turns out to be)

Clearly you would need 9 UR to make all three so there is definitely value in a universal token. There is clearly value in an Eldritch piece.

I think you should pick 2 (not all 3). I am willing to sacrifice some stats for the other two powers.

Ed

PS - if you didn't get my vote, no I would not be happy with +4/+6/+6.

Well, if this isn't a sign that we're getting close, I don' t know what is.

Just to be 100% clear Ed, I'm proposing either +4 Str (possibly 5, but unlikely) or +6 Dex or +6 Con. Not one token that gives all 3 at once.

I get that the same token could be used to do each one in 3 different builds, which I think you still believe is too powerful.

That said, I do think that if we are going from UR to Eldritch, we can increase the variability somewhat.

If we were going from UR to Relic, I would suggest simply removing the negatives.
I do want a little more from my eldritch token.

Also, I think if we are worried about the versatility of this one new Eldritch token, we can handle that with the recipe.

Maybe I'm not seeing that the kilt I proposed is so much better than the one already posted. Or perhaps you (Ed) feel that the kilt already proposed remains too strong?

I think we've already decided that +5 HP and one of +4 Str or +4 Dex or +4 Con is on the table at least.