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TOPIC: Notes about Tokens for 2019 !!

Notes about Tokens for 2019 !! 5 years 8 months ago #1

NOTE: Thank you all for being a HUGE help this year with the tokens! Y'all gave us some great ideas, and then you provided some passionate feedback for the preliminary token designs. You have made a great contribution to this year's token set, and for that I am very grateful. As we draw to a close the final designs of the 2019 token set, I just wanted to say how much your help means to me. It means a great deal. Thank you.

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I hope everybody enjoyed the new and improved True Dungeon experience that premiered at Origins and GenCon this year. I hope it is clear to everybody just how much I love running True Dungeon for all you awesome gamers. I may have doubted True Dungeon staying power initially but now it is clear to me that this game has a bright and glorious future. I can’t wait for all of you to see some of the even more amazing ideas I have in store for you in the future.

Also, with the recent passing of my brother Greg, I realized that I need to set a good foundation for True Dungeon to continue on without me at some point -- hopefully far down the line. So, some of these changes are meant to help get TD to a better future -- with or without me.

The UR token "Gregor's Tome of Focus" is a remembrance token for my brother -- and his big influence on TD by being my first DM.

As the game grows I am able to take a more long-term approach than I used to, and as part of that I need to make sure that the tokens compliment the game and make it more fun for everybody without causing unnecessary dungeon design complications. I know that some of you will not agree with some of these changes, but I hope that you can appreciate my desire to keep the game you love balanced and healthy far in to the future.

Wands

The first thing I want to address are the “chargeless” wands first printed in 2018. Although we loved seeing more wands being used, we feel that unlimited-use wands are not the ideal path going forward. Starting at Origins 2019, all wands will now be consumable, but wands will no longer have a fixed number of charges. When a player wants to use a wand (old or new), they hand the wand token to the DM. Actions permitting, the player may use this wand as much as they desire for the rest of the room. At the end of the room the wand is placed in the consumables bucket.

If you have a Medallion of Mystic Mouth you will only have to place ONE Wand on the combat board so that you can use each one -- each round. At the end of the combat, the Wand token is consumed.

Changes to URs

There are two Ultra Rare tokens that have been in use for five years now and have continued to create challenges for balancing the difficulty level of the dungeons. As a result, we are going to make an errata for both of these tokens:


Lenses of Divine Sight: +2 pts to ALL healing Spells. Also, you may split Spell or Scroll between two players with (now no WIS req)
Cloak of Shadowskin: +1 saves & immune to one successful melee or missile hit (1/game) – your choice.


We will also be reprinting these tokens as 2019 Ultra Rares with the corrected text and new artwork. Starting at Origins 2019, you will have to turn in the old tokens for the new 2019 versions. If you would prefer to replace the old token with a completely different UR token, you may turn your old token in for any 2018/2019 Ultra Rare. Either way you will receive a 10x treasure draw chip as a thank you for your understanding during this rebalancing. The old versions of these tokens will no longer be usable after Jan 31st, 2020; you must exchange your old token before that date. The old tokens will have the new power starting at Origins 2019.


Note that the Lenses of Divine Sight will no longer have a WIS requirement and will apply to scrolls as part of this errata. Please know that I have big plans for the non-primary stats as part of the token and character design process for the 2020+ season.

Eldritch Set Changes

With two new Eldritch items coming in the next few years it is obvious we need to adjust the Eldritch Set powers to be more in line with the growing quantity Eldritch tokens. I really hate to do this now, but I feel we need to re-align these tokens to allow for better combat scenarios. With that we are changing the Eldritch Set bonuses as follows:
o All set bonuses will grant a level (no stacking of level bump).
o All set bonuses grant an amount of targeted healing (or pooled if AOE healing)
o All set bonuses grant a damage bonus to all character class augmentable damage sources: Melee/Ranged/Spells (not wands, scrolls, etc.)





There may or may not be any bonus for equipping all 5 Eldritch pieces that will be announced when the 5th (Tooth of Cavadar Transmute) becomes available.


Examples

If a character has equipped the Rod of Seven Parts, the Supreme Ring of Elemental Command, and the Boots of Four Winds (all available today) they would get a level bump and +6/+2 points of healing/damage capability.

Old versus New Set Comparison





Summary

Eldritch set now gives everyone a level bump with only 2 items equipped. The set no longer offers any Spell or Damage Resistance. The Eldritch set does less healing initially but scales up. The Eldritch set now provides a damage bump to all classes. I understand if folks are upset about the doing away with Spell and Damage Resistance, but it is just a complication I am trying to remove from the front end – as now we have to plan for these two Resistances when we set the monster stats at Nightmare+…so by doing away with them on the set bonus, we can no longer add them in on the monster stats. That just makes for a cleaner game while not affecting the net combat stats at all. I just felt this was a more honest way to do it – and it keeps it less cumbersome for new players and DMs.
These changes will go in to effect starting the 2019-2020 TD season at Origins.


2019 Ultra Rare Notes

Shaman’s Belt (Druid & Wizards) – This token’s full effects won’t fit on the token, so additional info can be found on tokendb.com. The token text reads: Lose 1st level Spell to polymorph into Elemental

Additional Info: The druid can choose one form per room and gain these abilities:

Fire Elemental: Gain -5 Fire resistance and Fire damage subtype
Frost Elemental: Gain -5 Cold resistance and Cold damage subtype
Air Elemental: Gain -5 Shock resistance and Shock damage subtype
Earth Elemental: Gain -5 Sonic resistance and Fire damage subtype

This UR does not grant any special polymorph abilities – like being able to cast spells or transform as a Free Action.

Shoes of the Sneak
– This token grants the Rogue the ability to sneak attack the same monster a 2nd time (this only works with a Melee attack). This can only occur 1 per game.


Relic Notes

Greater Shaman’s Necklace (Druid) – This token’s full effects won’t fit on the token, so additional info can be found on tokendb.com. The token text reads: Polymorph into Elemental is Free Action

Additional Info:

This token allows the Druid to change into an elemental instantly as a free action without using a 1st level Spell, but it does not confer the ability to cast Spells in elemental form.

The druid can choose one form per room and gain these abilities:

Fire Elemental: Gain -10 Fire resistance and Fire damage subtype
Frost Elemental: Gain -10Cold resistance and Cold damage subtype
Air Elemental: Gain -10 Shock resistance and Shock damage subtype
Earth Elemental: Gain -10 Sonic resistance and Fire damage subtype


Necklace of the Sneak – This token extends the critical hit range on ALL SA attacks made during an adventure from "20" to "19-20", and it allows them to SA without a one round delay. No other Keen effects will stack with this item. It also allows the Rogue to sneak attack the same monster a 2nd time with a melee attack. A Rogue with Lenses of Vital Sight could make either SA's with a Missile weapon, and a Rogue with Bracers of Guided Strike could ignore any Critical and Sneak Attack immunities of any SA attacks. At the UR level this 2nd SA attack ability can be used once per game, but at the Relic level it can be used twice per game.


Legendary Notes

The design concept around the legendary tokens is to combine class-oriented tokens to one sweet legendary class specific token.

Iktomi’s Shaper's Necklace (Druid) – This token’s full effects won’t fit on the token, so additional info can be found on tokendb.com. The token text reads: Polymorph into Elemental as Free Action (w/Spells)

This token allows the Druid to change into an elemental instantly as a free action without using a 1st level Spell, and it does confer the ability to cast Spells in elemental form.

The druid can choose one form per room and gain these abilities:

Fire Elemental: Gain -10 Fire resistance and Fire damage subtype
Frost Elemental: Gain -10 Cold resistance and Cold damage subtype
Air Elemental: Gain -10 Shock resistance and Shock damage subtype
Earth Elemental: Gain -10 Sonic resistance and Fire damage subtype

May use any Polymorph Potion as above with all restrictions lifted (free action & Spells), and when they do so they do not have to turn in the token.


Raven’s Sneaky Necklace – This token extends the critical hit range on ALL SA attacks made during an adventure from "20" to "17-20", and it allows them to SA without a one round delay. No other Keen effects will stack with this item. It also allows the Rogue to sneak attack the same monster a 2nd time with a melee attack in every room. A Rogue with Lenses of Vital Sight could make either SA's with a Missile weapon, and a Rogue with Bracers of Guided Strike could ignore any Critical and Sneak Attack immunities of any SA attacks. At the UR level this 2nd SA attack ability can be used once per game, at the Relic level it can be used twice per game, but at the Legendary level the 2nd SA attack ability can be used once per room.

Widseth’s Legendary Lute – Bardsong is increased to +2 to hit/+2 to damage which brings a 5th level Bard to +4/+4. The bard may take other standard actions (slide, cast spells, read scrolls, activate wands) as normal. When the party makes a saving throw and a “1-3” is rolled the bard may call for a re-roll (1/game).

SPECIAL NOTE about Relics and Legendaries

Now that every class has at least a few generic legendary tokens, starting in 2019 we will be producing class specific ones. Every Relic and Legendary class specific token, barring some thematic exceptions will occupy the neck slot so as not to interfere with any previous Eldritch items. The two classes that will not be in the neck slot are the Bard and Paladin. This puts all the classes on a roughly even slot impact basis. I hope you like the new 2019 legendaries for the Bard, Druid, & Rogue! Next year we plan on Neck slot items for the Barbarian, Monk and Ranger -- while the +2 Holy Avenger (from 2019) can be transmuted up to a +5 Holy Avenger! We wanted to add the +2 Holy Avenger in this year -- since Paladins will be venturing into the Infernal Pit!

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Notes about Tokens for 2019 !! 5 years 8 months ago #2

I have a lot of sympathy for interesting wands not being one (room) and done.

Can non-damaging wands just become 1/game non-consumable and leave damaging ones as consumable as someone else suggested?
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Notes about Tokens for 2019 !! 5 years 8 months ago #3

Thanks for including us in this process, Jeff. Talking (passionately) about TD is nearly as fun as playing!

I like the new set a lot, but I continue to be very concerned about the wands rule change. In case you missed it, isauteikisa started a rather thoughtful discussion here: truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=581&id=248241&limitstart=0 .

I am particularly concerned that the rule change will force owners of Mystic Mouth and IS Fluorite Cube to have to start spending money to keep using these two URs. Feels like bait and switch since lots of players purchased those URs with the expectation that they wouldn’t have to sink a bunch of extra $ on consumables. I may be wrong, but I don’t recall there ever having been a rule change that forces players to spend more money to keep using previously purchased tokens.

As has been said elsewhere, it is one thing to nerf a token in a way that makes it less powerful (like this year’s nerfing of the Lenses and Cloak). But it is another thing entirely to nerf a token in a way that makes it less powerful AND requires owners to actually have to spend money to keep using that token.

What is the perceived problem here, and are there alternative fixes that don’t require players to spend more money to keep using their MMM and ISFC?

Thanks for considering.
Last edit: by Boilerplate.
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Notes about Tokens for 2019 !! 5 years 8 months ago #4

Jeff, I'm still a bit confused on the Wands.

For Mystic Mouth, do you just use one Wand now regardless of whether you're just using a wand with the Mouth or if you're using a wand with the Mouth and another with the regular action?
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Notes about Tokens for 2019 !! 5 years 8 months ago #5

...while the +2 Holy Avenger (from 2019) can be transmuted up to a +5 Holy Avenger! We wanted to add the +2 Holy Avenger in this year -- since Paladins will be venturing into the Infernal Pit!


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Fixed :)
Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.
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Notes about Tokens for 2019 !! 5 years 8 months ago #6

Mike Steele wrote: Jeff, I'm still a bit confused on the Wands.

For Mystic Mouth, do you just use one Wand now regardless of whether you're just using a wand with the Mouth or if you're using a wand with the Mouth and another with the regular action?


I think it means one additional wand token.
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Notes about Tokens for 2019 !! 5 years 8 months ago #7

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Still don;t know how to feel about the wands... but there is definite potential there - I just hate to see them go expendable in the exact fashion that has been described... Used to like expending one charge from wand of slow... and then shifting into spellcasting...

Not getting too much into the LoDS or Cloak debates - those are two items that I don't relate to very much... although the LoDS does seem drastic...

Regardless... the overall shift and reasoning I do understand!
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They say that the best weapon is the one you never have to use. I respectfully disagree. I prefer the weapon you only have to use once! Oh - and if you really need to think about whether you're going to use the fireball or the + umpty staff of butt-whooping - you're likely to find yourself full of arrows, or fangs, or nasty knives & swords and such. Don't think - just shoot!
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Notes about Tokens for 2019 !! 5 years 8 months ago #8

edwin wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Jeff, I'm still a bit confused on the Wands.

For Mystic Mouth, do you just use one Wand now regardless of whether you're just using a wand with the Mouth or if you're using a wand with the Mouth and another with the regular action?


I think it means one additional wand token.


I'm not sure, I really think that Jeff modified it so that you only have to use one Wand even if you're using it both on the regular turn and as your free action with Mystic Mouth, and the wording isn't fully modified yet. I think he may be responding to some peoples concern that they don't want to burn two consumable wands per room.

On the one hand, I don't think that's how Mystic Mouth works. On the other hand, logically, if a Wizard is firing a couple of shots with a Wand per turn, it seems better to just hold one wand and blast away with it than to keep switching back and forth between two. I like the image of a Wizard just holding that Wand and firing away multiple times per turn.
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Notes about Tokens for 2019 !! 5 years 8 months ago #9

Mike Steele wrote:

edwin wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Jeff, I'm still a bit confused on the Wands.

For Mystic Mouth, do you just use one Wand now regardless of whether you're just using a wand with the Mouth or if you're using a wand with the Mouth and another with the regular action?


I think it means one additional wand token.


I'm not sure, I really think that Jeff modified it so that you only have to use one Wand even if you're using it both on the regular turn and as your free action with Mystic Mouth, and the wording isn't fully modified yet. I think he may be responding to some peoples concern that they don't want to burn two consumable wands per room.

On the one hand, I don't think that's how Mystic Mouth works. On the other hand, logically, if a Wizard is firing a couple of shots with a Wand per turn, it seems better to just hold one wand and blast away with it than to keep switching back and forth between two. I like the image of a Wizard just holding that Wand and firing away multiple times per turn.


I certainly read it at one wand for the whole room. It’s a good trade off. It keeps Mystic Mouth good, doesn’t kill the wand supply too fast, doesn’t make the cost of using mystic mouth spiral out of control. And mystic mouth will need errata on the database but that’s fine.
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Notes about Tokens for 2019 !! 5 years 8 months ago #10

It seems Jeff intentionally changed the wording to allow one wand to be used for the whole room with or without MoMM. But the text wasn’t fully changed.

If we have healing wands in the future I think they will need a different mechanic, at lease for use in puzzle rooms or after combat.
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Notes about Tokens for 2019 !! 5 years 8 months ago #11

Grekel! wrote: Still don;t know how to feel about the wands... but there is definite potential there - I just hate to see them go expendable in the exact fashion that has been described... Used to like expending one charge from wand of slow... and then shifting into spellcasting...

Not getting too much into the LoDS or Cloak debates - those are two items that I don't relate to very much... although the LoDS does seem drastic...

Regardless... the overall shift and reasoning I do understand!


I’m thinking common wands would be a great place for one-per-room utility wands like slow. And if common wands become more powerful, maybe more will be used. We have plenty of Phil Stones floating around anyway.

Kirk Bauer wrote: It seems Jeff intentionally changed the wording to allow one wand to be used for the whole room with or without MoMM. But the text wasn’t fully changed.

If we have healing wands in the future I think they will need a different mechanic, at lease for use in puzzle rooms or after combat.


Maybe something like “1 room, max X targets, 1 target per round.”

"Ceci n'est pas une pipe" - Magritte
Last edit: by Brad Mortensen.
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Notes about Tokens for 2019 !! 5 years 8 months ago #12

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Grekel! wrote: Still don;t know how to feel about the wands... but there is definite potential there - I just hate to see them go expendable in the exact fashion that has been described... Used to like expending one charge from wand of slow... and then shifting into spellcasting...

Not getting too much into the LoDS or Cloak debates - those are two items that I don't relate to very much... although the LoDS does seem drastic...

Regardless... the overall shift and reasoning I do understand!


I’m thinking common wands would be a great place for one-per-room utility wands like slow. And if common wands become more powerful, maybe more will be used. We have plenty of Phil Stones floating around anyway.

Kirk Bauer wrote: It seems Jeff intentionally changed the wording to allow one wand to be used for the whole room with or without MoMM. But the text wasn’t fully changed.

If we have healing wands in the future I think they will need a different mechanic, at lease for use in puzzle rooms or after combat.


Maybe something like “1 room, max X targets, 1 target per round.”


I think the idea behind the latest iteration of the wand rules is to try and make MMM owners ok with the increased expenses of using it while still keeping the wands new rules.

The new rules would have rased the price of playing with mystic mouth quite a bit.

I have posted it several times, the thing that convinced me to PYP mystic mouth was last years wand rule change, and I’m sure I’m not alone on that.
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