TOPIC: 2019 Transmuted Token Images !!

Matt wrote:

MetaphoricDragon wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote: PLEASE take a last final look at these token images, and please note any issues you see. We are pretty much final on the token abilities, but we would love your help in finding any errors.

25 pages later. That was pretty optimistic.

seems to happen every year, as soon as Jeff thinks he is done, we debate our way through 5 more revisions >_>

Is it me or this year seems much faster, seems like it used to take weeks/upto a month. I thought last years set design was quick and this seems faster pace yet.

I was thinking the same thing.

Mike Steele wrote:

Matt wrote:

MetaphoricDragon wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote: PLEASE take a last final look at these token images, and please note any issues you see. We are pretty much final on the token abilities, but we would love your help in finding any errors.

25 pages later. That was pretty optimistic.

seems to happen every year, as soon as Jeff thinks he is done, we debate our way through 5 more revisions >_>

Is it me or this year seems much faster, seems like it used to take weeks/upto a month. I thought last years set design was quick and this seems faster pace yet.

I was thinking the same thing.

The L&L section was MUCH faster.

This section feels about the same, but that may have to do with the holiday.

We should consider slowing it down a bit, otherwise that's how we get very strong UR kilts that lead to eldritch issues, and legendary hammers that's are probably too good as well

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Ian Lee wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: There’s a lot of smart people on this thread. I’m surprised if we can’t figure out something that works for everyone, not just the ones who want the HP above all else.

Doubt it. Differing goals. If everyone was fine with more power, than +6 & +6 & +6 would work, which is something I wondered whether it would do after Fatherbane came out. The "oh, okay, I guess that's kind of broken" response would tolerate +6 or +6 or +6, maybe, while pushing for +4 & +4 & +4 or whatever (because it will make apps easier to code!). The djinni out of the bottle problem with Tavernbane is what makes having nice, powerful, yet somehow not unbalanced things [sure] so difficult.

In terms of class bias or play style bias or whatever, I use Tavernbane a fair amount. I use Fatherbane for amusement. I will probably use Barrelbane for amusement but am not terribly interested. I'm not that excited by +4 Con and +5 HP but would do it anyway because of Eldritch set bonuses. So, back to different people wanting different things.

It would be pointless, but the endless going around in circles left me thinking the Eldritch token should be:

Kilt of True Happiness
Choose one:
1. You may wield Thor's Hammer
2. Gain 15.5 HP
3. Just one shot kill everything because your STR is 50+ or whatever

But, then, I thought about how there are so many posts that just say the same thing over and over again. I actually don't mind the idea of transmuting some Kilts and not others, so I don't feel as strongly about the end result as others. If anything, having a Wizard HP build and a Wizard Eldritchy build as two different things already mirrors some of what I do below the Eldritch level and doesn't make me sad face that I don't get to have it all. Fortunately, still have Mad ... ... ...

Btw, I do wonder about the impact of different proposals on players with different collection sizes. I've seen comments from those with only a few URs, I think, or maybe it was in one of the other going around in circles debates on MoMM or LoDS or CoS or whatever, but I don't have a feel for how one version or another impacts those players as much.

Is there anyone out there who wouldn't be happy with

1. Change UR Kilt to +4 Str/-2 Dex/-2Con (Could be +5 Str/-2 or 3 Dex/-2 or 3 Con)
2. Make Eld Kilt +4 (or 5) Str or +6 Dex or +6 Con

We can't change the previously printed, and arguable overpowered, kilts of tavernbane and fatherbane. At least unless we feel they are as bad as LoDS and CoS, which I would see a lot of disagreement around.

We CAN change this year's kilt.

I think most, if not all, would agree that strength is valued by more classes than Dex or Con.
I think that we do not HAVE to print a +6 strength kilt as a UR, and we probably shouldn't
I think anyone who opens a +4 Str kilt as a UR would be very happy with it.

Those who are arguing for the eldritch kilt to be strictly better than any of its pieces would be satisfied, as the Eldritch kilt would still be better by virtue of having no negatives. And being part of the eldritch set.

Anything I'm missing here?

Very sensible plan, Wade. But I think the Eld Kilt should still be the same bonus for one stat of the player's choice. I like +5 because the odd number adds a little bit of thought/strategy. That kind of bonus is going to motivate me to build the Eld Kilt which will be my first Eld item. Also, I don't care about the extra HP and seems like a tack-on that doesn't belong on an Eld item.

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Ian Lee wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: There’s a lot of smart people on this thread. I’m surprised if we can’t figure out something that works for everyone, not just the ones who want the HP above all else.

Doubt it. Differing goals. If everyone was fine with more power, than +6 & +6 & +6 would work, which is something I wondered whether it would do after Fatherbane came out. The "oh, okay, I guess that's kind of broken" response would tolerate +6 or +6 or +6, maybe, while pushing for +4 & +4 & +4 or whatever (because it will make apps easier to code!). The djinni out of the bottle problem with Tavernbane is what makes having nice, powerful, yet somehow not unbalanced things [sure] so difficult.

In terms of class bias or play style bias or whatever, I use Tavernbane a fair amount. I use Fatherbane for amusement. I will probably use Barrelbane for amusement but am not terribly interested. I'm not that excited by +4 Con and +5 HP but would do it anyway because of Eldritch set bonuses. So, back to different people wanting different things.

It would be pointless, but the endless going around in circles left me thinking the Eldritch token should be:

Kilt of True Happiness
Choose one:
1. You may wield Thor's Hammer
2. Gain 15.5 HP
3. Just one shot kill everything because your STR is 50+ or whatever

But, then, I thought about how there are so many posts that just say the same thing over and over again. I actually don't mind the idea of transmuting some Kilts and not others, so I don't feel as strongly about the end result as others. If anything, having a Wizard HP build and a Wizard Eldritchy build as two different things already mirrors some of what I do below the Eldritch level and doesn't make me sad face that I don't get to have it all. Fortunately, still have Mad ... ... ...

Btw, I do wonder about the impact of different proposals on players with different collection sizes. I've seen comments from those with only a few URs, I think, or maybe it was in one of the other going around in circles debates on MoMM or LoDS or CoS or whatever, but I don't have a feel for how one version or another impacts those players as much.

Is there anyone out there who wouldn't be happy with

1. Change UR Kilt to +4 Str/-2 Dex/-2Con (Could be +5 Str/-2 or 3 Dex/-2 or 3 Con)
2. Make Eld Kilt +4 (or 5) Str or +6 Dex or +6 Con

We can't change the previously printed, and arguable overpowered, kilts of tavernbane and fatherbane. At least unless we feel they are as bad as LoDS and CoS, which I would see a lot of disagreement around.

We CAN change this year's kilt.

I think most, if not all, would agree that strength is valued by more classes than Dex or Con.
I think that we do not HAVE to print a +6 strength kilt as a UR, and we probably shouldn't
I think anyone who opens a +4 Str kilt as a UR would be very happy with it.

Those who are arguing for the eldritch kilt to be strictly better than any of its pieces would be satisfied, as the Eldritch kilt would still be better by virtue of having no negatives. And being part of the eldritch set.

Anything I'm missing here?

Very sensible plan, Wade. But I think the Eld Kilt should still be the same bonus for one stat of the player's choice. I like +5 because the odd number adds a little bit of thought/strategy. That kind of bonus is going to motivate me to build the Eld Kilt which will be my first Eld item. Also, I don't care about the extra HP and seems like a tack-on that doesn't belong on an Eld item.

The +5 HP seems to have been an add on to replace what was most prized by those going from +6 Con/-4 Dex to +4 Con only.

It of course does not address the needs of those going from +6 Dex/-× Str/-2 Con to +4 Dex.

In that regard it doesnt seem like the best solution.

I think it is tough to make it the same bonus for all 3 stats because each stat affects different things differently.

I actually like the idea of unbalancing it, to try to bring it more in line with "perceived value"

The problem there is we are working on too tight of a scale.

I can live with it as is, or how it was. I'm just trying to advocate are for others who are in what appears to be a tougher spot.

Jeff321 wrote: Ed do you want to keep the kilts as currently designed?

I wrote in another thread...

If it was up to me I would print the Eldritch Kilt as +3 to STR and +3 DEX and +3 CON and be ok if they didn't transmute them. With the current draft of +4 to one stat and +5 HP I can live with that.

Ed

MasterED wrote:

Jeff321 wrote: Ed do you want to keep the kilts as currently designed?

I wrote in another thread...

If it was up to me I would print the Eldritch Kilt as +3 to STR and +3 DEX and +3 CON and be ok if they didn't transmute them.

Ed

That plus something like free movement had been my expectation before the initial draft came out. But I since I use Tavernbane on my Wizard build, I understand how painful that would be for some.

Harlax wrote:

MasterED wrote:

Jeff321 wrote: Ed do you want to keep the kilts as currently designed?

I wrote in another thread...

If it was up to me I would print the Eldritch Kilt as +3 to STR and +3 DEX and +3 CON and be ok if they didn't transmute them.

Ed

That plus something like free movement had been my expectation before the initial draft came out. But I since I use Tavernbane on my Wizard build, I understand how painful that would be for some.

I was also expecting +3 to all plus Eldritch bonus, but I would have been perfectly happy with the +5 to one. The +4/HP doesn't feel as good since Con is least of the 3 for my builds, but I can't really afford to keep an untransmuted set. But it will free up a ring slot with the changes to Eldritch set getting me +1 level 2 years earlier than expected.

Phil Norton wrote:

Harlax wrote:

MasterED wrote:

Jeff321 wrote: Ed do you want to keep the kilts as currently designed?

I wrote in another thread...

If it was up to me I would print the Eldritch Kilt as +3 to STR and +3 DEX and +3 CON and be ok if they didn't transmute them.

Ed

That plus something like free movement had been my expectation before the initial draft came out. But I since I use Tavernbane on my Wizard build, I understand how painful that would be for some.

I was also expecting +3 to all plus Eldritch bonus, but I would have been perfectly happy with the +5 to one. The +4/HP doesn't feel as good since Con is least of the 3 for my builds, but I can't really afford to keep an untransmuted set. But it will free up a ring slot with the changes to Eldritch set getting me +1 level 2 years earlier than expected.

That's a great thing! Ring slots are awesome.

There is a token that lets you draw 11+ tokens! Rogues can sneak attack multiple times,...druids can be poly and cast spells at will,... but hold the phone! Bards want +2/+2 that's OP....

This cracks me up.
Its a legendary, its supposed to be...well, legendary.
If it were ordinary we'd call it an Ultra Rare.
Yes its better then all the existing instruments, that's the point.

I like the fact it doesn't have hand symbols! Finally an instrument that plays itself so we don't have to worry about what is in our hands.


My only complaint about it, is that it isn't called Val's Lute.

I too would prefer the kilt at +5 to a stat.

valetutto wrote: There is a token that lets you draw 11+ tokens! Rogues can sneak attack multiple times,...druids can be poly and cast spells at will,... but hold the phone! Bards want +2/+2 that's OP....

This cracks me up.
Its a legendary, its supposed to be...well, legendary.
If it were ordinary we'd call it an Ultra Rare.
Yes its better then all the existing instruments, that's the point.

I like the fact it doesn't have hand symbols! Finally an instrument that plays itself so we don't have to worry about what is in our hands.


My only complaint about it, is that it isn't called Val's Lute.

I think people are bashing on polymorph right now for similar reasons. Too darn powerful.

valetutto wrote: Its a legendary, its supposed to be...well, legendary.