TOPIC: Rogue Transmute Item

Heya Jack, I like the way you think. Very Rogue-like! Very... "I want it all, and I want it extra-shiny!"

So please, when I go thru your post to explain why I think it's a bad idea, realize I'm not targeting you ... I'm speaking through the filter of someone who has decided that Game Balance is a prize worth more than any single token. And I want TD to last for a long, long time.

JACKOFTRADZE wrote: The Sneaky Necklace still needs some work, the neck slot is great, the watered down powers are not. 1 extra Backstab per combat and a lower crit range is all that you gain here in the revised version. To me it's not that Legendary and the more I thought about it the cost to make this and the slot lost is not worth it to me.

Yep. Recent Legendaries have set the bar to new heights. We want Legendaries to be like Christmas, instead of accepting that the original Legendaries were just single-stat boosts... and perhaps they should have stayed that way.

- The no 1 Round power was not an issue as Rogues do not have a lot of Head choices to begin with so the default was Hood of Elvenkind with that power. It just got bumped up with the new Hood of Shadows Token that that gives you that power and +1AC. No gain, it's actually a loss of AC.

I'm not sure why it's a loss of AC. Could you clarify?

As for designing the Legendary around the assumption that Rogues will always use the Hood, I find it incredibly restrictive. If we go that route, then we're locking in the Hood, the same way a lot of people's Boots slots are locked in. it will prevent people from thinking up other cool tokens which could go in the head slot, because Rogues "wouldn't be able to use those items."

- The 18-20 Crit Range is nice but if you have Thor's Hammer it was already 19-20.

First: VERY FEW folks have Thor's Hammer. For some, the idea of an extended Crit range on Sneak Attack is a cool new option - even just at the Relic level!

Second... think about how you're boxing yourself into a corner by relying on Thor's Hammer for the extended Crit. What if some day there was a super-cool Shortsword... maybe with a +5 bonus when making Sneak Attacks! Unfortunately, everyone who relied on Thor's Hammer for their Extended Crit would say, "I don't like the new Shortsword. I'll only consider it if you add the Extended Crit range to it." and then it would get nerfed, or maybe never even made.

In other words, by tailoring this one Legendary around the stats of another Legendary, you're building a situation where 2 slots get "Locked in."

- Losing the Crit Immunity and the Ranged Backstab are big deals that made this desirable.

Yeah, they make it less desirable to players who don't have other options. My preference, instead of building those abilities into this token, would be to make those options available through other Rares or URs. Maybe re-print the Lenses of Vital Insight. Maybe make a cool Rogue Charm which allows ONE ranged Sneak Attack/combat. Maybe make some cool gloves which allow Ranged Sneak Attack - at a price. Maybe make a consumable Rare crossbow Bolt which lets Rogues do a Ranged SA. All these options would benefit players who can't afford the Legendary.... whereas building ranged SA into the Legendary only helps out the elite, and then makes it harder for other build options to emerge.


This is one of the big problems I have with Thor's Hammer. It's actually going to stifle weapon design in the future. There's nothing much we can do about that now. The one thing we can do, is argue loudly against other tokens being made into these unparalleled Franken-tokens which end up reducing build diversity, and quashing the options we should be providing for Rare & UR level players.

Raven wrote:
Yeah, they make it less desirable to players who don't have other options. My preference, instead of building those abilities into this token, would be to make those options available through other Rares or URs. Maybe re-print the Lenses of Vital Insight. Maybe make a cool Rogue Charm which allows ONE ranged Sneak Attack/combat. Maybe make some cool gloves which allow Ranged Sneak Attack - at a price. Maybe make a consumable Rare crossbow Bolt which lets Rogues do a Ranged SA. All these options would benefit players who can't afford the Legendary.... whereas building ranged SA into the Legendary only helps out the elite, and then makes it harder for other build options to emerge.


.

This is my biggest issue. Jeff said he would address ranged sneak attack during 2019 token design back in 2018, and mentioned ammo or a reprint of lenses of vital insight.

I think there are many would would like the option of a ranged sneak attack.

I like the idea of the bolt or arrow, as it means you cant just use Thors Hammer.
As a munchkin I want the lenses.

I would take it on the legendary, just so that it is somewhere in the set as we said it would be.

I concede that the legendary is not the most accessible place for it, and it may not be a good choice from balance and longevity perspectives.

Just please, put it somewhere!

Raven wrote: Heya Jack, I like the way you think. Very Rogue-like! Very... "I want it all, and I want it extra-shiny!"

So please, when I go thru your post to explain why I think it's a bad idea, realize I'm not targeting you ... I'm speaking through the filter of someone who has decided that Game Balance is a prize worth more than any single token. And I want TD to last for a long, long time.

JACKOFTRADZE wrote: The Sneaky Necklace still needs some work, the neck slot is great, the watered down powers are not. 1 extra Backstab per combat and a lower crit range is all that you gain here in the revised version. To me it's not that Legendary and the more I thought about it the cost to make this and the slot lost is not worth it to me.

Yep. Recent Legendaries have set the bar to new heights. We want Legendaries to be like Christmas, instead of accepting that the original Legendaries were just single-stat boosts... and perhaps they should have stayed that way.

- The no 1 Round power was not an issue as Rogues do not have a lot of Head choices to begin with so the default was Hood of Elvenkind with that power. It just got bumped up with the new Hood of Shadows Token that that gives you that power and +1AC. No gain, it's actually a loss of AC.

I'm not sure why it's a loss of AC. Could you clarify?

As for designing the Legendary around the assumption that Rogues will always use the Hood, I find it incredibly restrictive. If we go that route, then we're locking in the Hood, the same way a lot of people's Boots slots are locked in. it will prevent people from thinking up other cool tokens which could go in the head slot, because Rogues "wouldn't be able to use those items."

- The 18-20 Crit Range is nice but if you have Thor's Hammer it was already 19-20.

First: VERY FEW folks have Thor's Hammer. For some, the idea of an extended Crit range on Sneak Attack is a cool new option - even just at the Relic level!

Second... think about how you're boxing yourself into a corner by relying on Thor's Hammer for the extended Crit. What if some day there was a super-cool Shortsword... maybe with a +5 bonus when making Sneak Attacks! Unfortunately, everyone who relied on Thor's Hammer for their Extended Crit would say, "I don't like the new Shortsword. I'll only consider it if you add the Extended Crit range to it." and then it would get nerfed, or maybe never even made.

In other words, by tailoring this one Legendary around the stats of another Legendary, you're building a situation where 2 slots get "Locked in."

- Losing the Crit Immunity and the Ranged Backstab are big deals that made this desirable.

Yeah, they make it less desirable to players who don't have other options. My preference, instead of building those abilities into this token, would be to make those options available through other Rares or URs. Maybe re-print the Lenses of Vital Insight. Maybe make a cool Rogue Charm which allows ONE ranged Sneak Attack/combat. Maybe make some cool gloves which allow Ranged Sneak Attack - at a price. Maybe make a consumable Rare crossbow Bolt which lets Rogues do a Ranged SA. All these options would benefit players who can't afford the Legendary.... whereas building ranged SA into the Legendary only helps out the elite, and then makes it harder for other build options to emerge.


This is one of the big problems I have with Thor's Hammer. It's actually going to stifle weapon design in the future. There's nothing much we can do about that now. The one thing we can do, is argue loudly against other tokens being made into these unparalleled Franken-tokens which end up reducing build diversity, and quashing the options we should be providing for Rare & UR level players.

Raven,

Thank you for the disclaimer, I do not feel targeted at all. You are always kind and sweet in person as well as online, I would never take it that way. Forums are meant for friendly debate not hurt feelings. I think too many people get oversensitive and take things too personally. That said, thanks for being empathetic, same goes from my response in the debate.

If you read my posts I don’t want it all, I just want it worthwhile to make, it’s a big investment. As I mentioned in my prior posts I want to trade in powers not add more. Currently I feel like this is a Relic, not a Legendary.

In regards to weapons and lower crit range:
I have +5 Ashers Fang and +5 Thors Hammer, I only brought up Thor’s Hammer for the lower crit range is already readily available to Rogues at this level. (Thor’s Hammer was last year’s debate and I do not disagree with you at all on that issue) Yes, while not everyone has Thor’s Hammer I would guess chances are high that anyone that is going to make a Legendary like this Necklace will already have it. The reality is the Legendary Level is on a whole other type of Token buyer so I do not think the general accessibility concerns apply as much here. I backstab with Ashers and use Thor’s as my ranged. Personally I think Crit immunity is more worthwhile than the 18-20 Range. That is a power I would like to swap out. If you cannot Crit the Monster to begin with the 18-20 is useless.

In regards to the no delay Sneak Attack:
Building this into the token I do not think is necessary at all and is another power I would exchange for the Ranged Backstab. The new Hood of Shadow is no delay and +1AC, that is a nice upgrade from the Hood of Elvenkind that just gave no dely. Do Rogues HAVE to use this? No, but it’s in a fairly noncompetitive slot that just got upgraded in 2019 that is why I do not see this making logical or worthwhile sense. Again I would drop this power.

Giving up the neck slot, wrists and lenses (if they eventually reprint the vital insight) seems way more constrictive and boxed in to me. I just do not think the investment to make this and or the slot are worth it. This is my thought on where it should be:

At the Relic Level:
x2 SA
19-20 Crit

At the Legendary level:
x2 SA
18-20 Crit
Crit Immunity (Bracers of Guided Strike being an ingredient so those that have them do not lose out and makes sense for the recipe)

I’m not going to beat this into the ground like the Kilt is being. I stand by this, it still needs massaging. I’m cool with compromise.

I really hope whatever form the final relic/legendary take it includes the sneak attack first round power. Rogues have been stuck giving up a slot to get around that limitation since the dawn of time and while I know its not hard to build around it would be amazing to get that slot back.

I really gotta be loading the van & heading out of town, but wanted to do a quick reply.
Pls forgive spelling errors &/or incoherence as the caffeine is still just kicking in.

Okay.
Out of a laundry list of cool thingswhich could be on a Rogue-desirable token, here's what I think of each....

* No-Delay Sneak Attack (I'd call it "1st Round" but sometimes the Rogue chooses to spend first round healing, or whatev and I don't want later rules lawyers to say "It only works for the FIRST round!) - THIS is a core Rogue ability. I'd love to see it at UC level (perhaps with a penalty? Make SA at -2 to hit?) AND in 3 different Rare slots (Right now we have Boots, Head, maybe add Cloak? or Ring? Or even a Rare Amulet?)

Since it's so core, it makes sense to me to put it onto the Rogue transmute. But with alternate ways to achieve it, I could also live with it not being part of the transmutes.

* Extended Crit Range. This is Cool! And would really help Rogues make use of their SA power! I like. It feels delicious and Legendary. WANT. The ability is available on some few other tokens which are not core the the Rogue class, so I'm not seeing any particular conflicts.

* Bypass Crit Immunity: We just got this on the Bracers. We argued hard for those bracers. It feels too soon to roll it into the Legendary. I'd rather see people argue for more ways to get this particular ability (A Charm which lets all classes ignore crit immunities? A Ring just for Rogues?) ... I admit it would be cool to have on the Legendary, but I'm afraid doing so would mean people stop lookingfor ways to get this ability into lower rarities.

* Ranged Sneak Attack: This exists in a single UR. but it's an OOP UR. It sure would be a cool in a Legendary. But even cooler would be to make this ability available more widely, at Rare and UR levels.

* 2nd / 3rd Sneak Attack - Again, this is New, and Shiny! I like it. And actually, it's not 100% new... there was also those Rare boots which let Rogues do a second sneak attack against a different monster ... so it totally fits to have an UR which allows vs same monster. Very good rare > UR progression. And following the progression into a 3rd SA at Legendary seems to flow nicely. We might want to advocate for this ability in different slots, at some point. in fact, if we were gonna drop anything from the Rogue Legendary, I'd say drop *this* .... and watch as people push HARD for the ability to make a comeback in future years, and other token designs. (Or, you know, they could just swap out their Eldritch boots for these UR boots, to get this cool effect. Lol.)

Honestly, I think this is the core ability the new transmutes are designed around, so lets keep it. It makes sense.

* +to hit for Sneak Attack. I think this would be valid & viable as a bonus on the Transmutes. It's now available as Rare gloves, and as (OoP) UR boots. But I admit it's not one I'm crossing my fingers for.

* +damage for Sneak Attacks. We've never done this before... and honestly, I think it would open a can of worms (especially combined with an increased Crit range) so let's not.

* Failure Resistance - We haven't done it before, but could experiment with it in transmutes if we wanted to ... something like, May make a 2nd Sneak Attack IF the first one failed. But there's no precedent for this, and I'm not sure if it's a path I want to go down. But it would be in line with the theme of the token, so maybe?

* Unrelated Bonus Abilities - Like.... Free movement? or Immunity to Surprise? or Libram of Looting Ability? ... I really don't want these on the Legendary - or Relic -, because it makes it feel too Franken-Token and there's already other ways to get those abilities. Please, no.


Kay. I gotta dash.
Catch up with ya all later, when this topic has probably been rendered moot by Jeff's next design uploads ; )

And Jack - thanks!

If I got to pick my dream text for the legendary it would be

UR May Sneak attack 2nd time on the same monster.

Relic Crit 19-20 on all SA/ May Sneak attack 2nd time on the same monster without 1 rd delay.

Legendary Crit 18-20 on all SA/ May Sneak attack 2nd time on any monster without 1 rd delay.


Which would incorporate the bracer power on the sneak attacks only, the leap attack effect again on the sneak attack only, and free up the head slot for whatever fun new hood comes later, while still playing nice with Nightshade’s +2 Short Sword.

I would leave sneak attacking with a ranged weapon off since the lenses of vital insight are an older UR and do kind of represent one of the few build path options for rogues besides STR.

Picc wrote: If I got to pick my dream text for the legendary it would be

UR May Sneak attack 2nd time on the same monster.

Relic Crit 19-20 on all SA/ May Sneak attack 2nd time on the same monster without 1 rd delay.

Legendary Crit 18-20 on all SA/ May Sneak attack 2nd time on any monster without 1 rd delay.


Which would incorporate the bracer power on the sneak attacks only, the leap attack effect again on the sneak attack only, and free up the head slot for whatever fun new hood comes later, while still playing nice with Nightshade’s +2 Short Sword.

I would leave sneak attacking with a ranged weapon off since the lenses of vital insight are an older UR and do kind of represent one of the few build path options for rogues besides STR.

~Nice~
+1

My thought was that I didn't like ranged sneak attack on the Legendary because plenty of people won't want or use that ability. The other things you mentioned are universally useful but that isn't. I'm thinking reprinting the Lenses of Vital Insight in the near future would be better.

Thoughts?

Kirk Bauer wrote: My thought was that I didn't like ranged sneak attack on the Legendary because plenty of people won't want or use that ability. The other things you mentioned are universally useful but that isn't. I'm thinking reprinting the Lenses of Vital Insight in the near future would be better.

Thoughts?

I kind of agree, I'm all for leaving g sneak with a ranged weapon off and reprinting the lenses at some point soon. I would wear them with the legendary if I were putting together a sniper rogue. I feel like that's the kind of thing that would be built for differently the a Str rogue. On the other hand I like the idea of including sneak against ranged as per the potion of leap attack. Sure it won't get used every combat but probably at least once per year. In my mind its akin to the rogue sneaking off ahead and popping out in ambush. It's a quality of life thing really since most rogues at that level will have access to unlimited leap attack options anyway. Plus it helps distinguish the legendary for the relic.

Picc wrote: If I got to pick my dream text for the legendary it would be

UR May Sneak attack 2nd time on the same monster.

Relic Crit 19-20 on all SA/ May Sneak attack 2nd time on the same monster without 1 rd delay.

Legendary Crit 18-20 on all SA/ May Sneak attack 2nd time on any monster without 1 rd delay.


Which would incorporate the bracer power on the sneak attacks only, the leap attack effect again on the sneak attack only, and free up the head slot for whatever fun new hood comes later, while still playing nice with Nightshade’s +2 Short Sword.

I would leave sneak attacking with a ranged weapon off since the lenses of vital insight are an older UR and do kind of represent one of the few build path options for rogues besides STR.

If you meant incorporating the Guided Strike Bracers powers on sneak Attacks only I would be 100% behind this. Make it an ingredient too!

Kirk Bauer wrote: My thought was that I didn't like ranged sneak attack on the Legendary because plenty of people won't want or use that ability. The other things you mentioned are universally useful but that isn't. I'm thinking reprinting the Lenses of Vital Insight in the near future would be better.

Thoughts?

I agree on the ranged but this needs the Crit immunity at least on SA like Picc suggested.

JACKOFTRADZE wrote:

Picc wrote: If I got to pick my dream text for the legendary it would be

UR May Sneak attack 2nd time on the same monster.

Relic Crit 19-20 on all SA/ May Sneak attack 2nd time on the same monster without 1 rd delay.

Legendary Crit 18-20 on all SA/ May Sneak attack 2nd time on any monster without 1 rd delay.


Which would incorporate the bracer power on the sneak attacks only, the leap attack effect again on the sneak attack only, and free up the head slot for whatever fun new hood comes later, while still playing nice with Nightshade’s +2 Short Sword.

I would leave sneak attacking with a ranged weapon off since the lenses of vital insight are an older UR and do kind of represent one of the few build path options for rogues besides STR.

If you meant incorporating the Guided Strike Bracers powers on sneak Attacks only I would be 100% behind this. Make it an ingredient too!

Yup that exactly