TOPIC: Rogue Transmute Item

I wanted to start a thread to discuss the rogue transmute item. If the intent is to get Rogues more competitive in combat, the numbers seem to support that, even at legendary, that won't be the case. Part of the problem is the foot slot but a more difficult problem is the frequency of sneak attack. As presented, it takes a foot slot meaning no boots of the four winds (+5 eldritch damage). Let's assume +20 damage for using the new legendary and +25 damage for using boots of the four winds and do the math (assuming 7.5 damage for the attack) and 5th level attacker.

Scenario one (new legendary transmute):
Round One: 20 base plus 7.5 weapon plus 20 sneak =47.5 damage (sub-par to similar monk/ranger, lower than similar dwarven fighter, barbarian, fighter, wizard, elven wizard, and druid).
Round two: 20 base plus 7.5 weapon plus 20 sneak =47.5 damage
Round Three: 20 base plus 7.5 weapon =27.5 damage
Total: 122.5 damage

Scenario two (boots of the four winds)(everything else is the same):
Round One: 25 base plus 7.5 weapon plus 20 sneak = 52.5 damage (still lower than other classes but a bit closer)
Round two: 25 base plus 7.5 weapon = 32.5 damage
Round three: 25 base plus 7.5 weapon = 32.5 damage
Total damage output: 117.5 damage

The legendary set over three rounds works out to 5 extra damage (or 1.6 per round). Over two rounds, the differential is better at 8 or 4 points per round. In exchange, it frees up wrist slot (otherwise used for bracers to allow the sneak on everything) and lenses for ranged rogues. The wrist slots could give up to +4 damage or flexibility for charms, etc and the lenses could be used for improved melee damage or increased dex. The downside is you are down an eldritch item which likely means you lose another slot in order to hit level 5 (ring, charm, etc.). The slot efficiency isn't better since you lose a BIS eldritch item.

It is good but doesn't feel legendary and kills using eldritch for a level bonus. If it were another slot (as much as I hate to say it but cloak is the best fit here - it just means you lose a highly competitive slot), it would be worth a legendary transmute if you could still use the boots of the four winds. Maybe "Cloak of the Night"?

Fred

I think you might need to refresh your cache. My understanding is the current Rogue legendary is proposed for the neck slot. Boots were the old version (which I agree was a problem)

you saw it was moved to neck at relic and legendary, right?

Heya Fred - I agree that Rogue's ability to be competitive in Melee is highly tied to their Sneak Attack, and I'm glad the transmute path - and the new UR boots! - provide ways to get multiple Sneak attacks in.

I'm confused, tho, about why you say the transmute path blocks the Boots of the 4 Winds. It's true that the new UR does that... but the transmute then evolves into a Necklace, which does not.

Could you clarify?

The image link still had shoes - when did it get changed? That sounds like a very good compromise to make. Thematically, I like cloak a bit more (more thiefy) but I can see a neck slot item as well...

....They already changed the the transmute to the neck slot....

My question with the revised transmute that just got washed over is...

Is the necklaces allowing rogues to crit sneak attack damage like the viper strike set (and with an expanded range ontop of it all) or is it just expanding the crit range for the regular attack part of the sneak attack?

Fred K wrote: The image link still had shoes - when did it get changed? That sounds like a very good compromise to make. Thematically, I like cloak a bit more (more thiefy) but I can see a neck slot item as well...

I think you may have to clear your cache or something like that?

Joshua Long wrote: Is the necklaces allowing rogues to crit sneak attack damage like the viper strike set (and with an expanded range ontop of it all) or is it just expanding the crit range for the regular attack part of the sneak attack?

We will have to wait till TPTB return to answer your question. I could make an attempt but I don't want to set expectations with my opinion.

Ed

The Sneaky Necklace still needs some work, the neck slot is great, the watered down powers are not. 1 extra Backstab per combat and a lower crit range is all that you gain here in the revised version. To me it's not that Legendary and the more I thought about it the cost to make this and the slot lost is not worth it to me.

- The no 1 Round power was not an issue as Rogues do not have a lot of Head choices to begin with so the default was Hood of Elvenkind with that power. It just got bumped up with the new Hood of Shadows Token that that gives you that power and +1AC. No gain, it's actually a loss of AC.

- The 18-20 Crit Range is nice but if you have Thor's Hammer it was already 19-20.

- Losing the Crit Immunity and the Ranged Backstab are big deals that made this desirable.

I suggest trading in the 18-20 for the Crit Immunity and make the Bracers of Guided Strike an ingredient so those that have it don't feel bad for having it.

I would be in favor of rolling in the crit immunity & sneak without delay. I like the increased crit range if this is to be a nightshade item since that plays well with nightshades short sword. But I cant say that I'm in favor of balancing around a throwing hammer though, that doesn't feel very rogueish.

Picc wrote: I would be in favor of rolling in the crit immunity & sneak without delay. I like the increased crit range if this is to be a nightshade item since that plays well with nightshades short sword. But I cant say that I'm in favor of balancing around a throwing hammer though, that doesn't feel very roguish.

Agreed, the Hammer is not very Roguish nor is a Hammer wielding Wizard lol but it's part of the game, that debate was had last year. I only brought up the Hammer because I have it and it gives you the 19-20 Crit Range. The Crit Immunity seems so vital to this item and would save a wrist slot while you give up a neck slot, seems fair if the point is to consolidate key rogue items. Currently it feels more like a Relic Charm not a Legendary.

Not asking for more just to get this to be truly useful and desirable. If each Class is to have Specific Legendary it needs to be perfect, this only comes once.

I think honestly if they want to go down the path of including the critical immunity in the transmutation they should just eliminate the rogue x2 sneak shoes at UR and fill it with a different one and start the critical immunity at the relic transmutation with the x2 sneak attack and use it to put in something else helpful. Maybe allow for no 1 round penalty only at the legendary level? or some configuration of the 3 things at whatever level. Otherwise making bracers an ingredient doesn't feel great. Or just add a bonus sneak damage clause at legendary