TOPIC: I think we have a problem

Picc wrote: The big problem (as I see it) with the idea of capping stats is the spread your going to get between even an optimized red/green character and someone running with just a starter pack.

I know its going to sound like I'm arguing from a biased position but wherever you cap things your going to run the risk of ruining someones fun.

There are four play modes: Easy, Normal, Hardcore and Nightmare. Currently as is, for example, you could indeed have 5 experienced players come into a run all decked out for Nightmare and the other 5 players could be total newbies with no tokens. 5 newbies pick Normal, 5 experienced players are way overpowered. Experienced players ruin the run and the fun for the new players.

The flip side of that is this: You cap the player stats for all run types. If someone tricks out their character and is over that, then too bad. Problem with said caps? If a run fails to complete the last room, or all the characters die somehow because of the stat caps, you are going to have some seriously pissed off players because they could have succeeded if their stats had not been capped.

The demand for TD is still huge. There are not enough runs to let everyone play who wants to, which is where you get the situation where total newbies were buying Nightmare-Only tickets because that was all that was left.

So... if you leave things as is, more and more new players will get pissed off because their Normal runs get overpowered by experienced players. If you introduce stat caps you will piss off experienced players who paid A LOT of hard earned money for their tokens and want to use them. If you make specialized ticket runs for different difficulty levels you still get players signing up for runs the either aren't able to handle or are too overpowered for.

Here is the solution I would try to work out, being a software engineer nerd:
Work with the people at GenCon. Tie the player database of TD players to the GenCon database for ticket registration. Create "new player only" runs. If you try to buy a ticket for a "new player only" run, your name and GenCon ID are cross-checked with the TD database. If you exist in the TD database as a player who has already been on a TD run before, you are denied the ability to by a ticket to a "new player only" run. This could be done year-over-year, ie- you are new player, never been on a TD run before and do not exist in the TD database so you can go as many "new player only" runs as you wish this year. Next year, your account is flagged with a bit marker as well as your regular account information, preventing you from accessing "new player only" tickets in future years.

Could this software solution work? Sure. But then you'd have to get the GenCon and TD database folks to work together very closely to implement it. It wouldn't be that hard, or so it seems on the surface because I have no idea how the GenCon and TD databases are constructed. Some kind of software change and partnership between GenCon and TD seems to be the only way to fix this, at least IMHO.

After that, it seems like Kirk's suggestion of people organizing new player runs the same way other difficulties currently get organized is the only solution. Problem with that is that TD is relying on players to organize that and be self-reliant instead of trying to solve the problem themselves....

Sigh... Just throwing some ideas and thoughts out there... see if we can cover the different angles and maybe find a solution that is actually teneable.

EDIT NOTE: In the software solution you could also prevent new players from buying "Nightmare only" tickets by using the same software system to verify players have gone at least one TD run before they can buy any Nightmare tickets.

I like the stat cap idea as well as more full runs available to the higher lvl players. I also 100% see this as an issue that will take some brainstorming and possibly some trial and error to solve.

I have thought the same thing Fiddy, but as you already stated it is a dream. What makes TD unique is that you only get it a couple times a year.. If TD was year round at a Westworld like Ren Fair set up it could hurt the over all demand. Keep them always wanting more. But what is a good Idea is TD moving to INDY. Seems logical on many levels, but then again I do not know what is really keeping them in Illinois in the first place. If your business and world revolves around Indy and the demand for you is in Indy and real support of your business is in Indy..Why would you be in Carbondale Illinois? At any rate I think if TD did move to Indy it would help the entire dungeon experience on many levels. Just my two cents.

CrowOfPyke wrote: After that, it seems like Kirk's suggestion of people organizing new player runs the same way other difficulties currently get organized is the only solution. Problem with that is that TD is relying on players to organize that and be self-reliant instead of trying to solve the problem themselves....

Sigh... Just throwing some ideas and thoughts out there... see if we can cover the different angles and maybe find a solution that is actually tenable.

I figured if I got enough people interested in doing this I could approach Jeff to see if we could pre-buy these runs like with the lottery runs and/or if Jeff could advertise them in the newsletter (with a specific coordinator to contact if a newbie wants to join).

I went through the Sable Gauntlet 3 times, and Underdark twice. After the first time of each, I knew the puzzles and how to attack. I had a different group of friends in the dungeons that did not see these rooms like I have. I took the queue from a veteran player friend of mine, and allowed my other friends to take lead on the puzzles. We would point out hints here and there to guide them, but still allowed them to solve the puzzle themselves. Things like the "!" on the floor in the outer ring of the web. That made them think the sentence started from the center. Stuff like that.

My philosophy is this:
I paid $52 for my ticket. But I didn't pay for their's. So I'm not going to tell them how to play, nor will I ruin it for them. And I certainly won't let someone else ruin things for me.
I don't need a queue to make me understand NOT to ruin things for others. Sadly not everyone has that mindset.

The only advice I can give is to have each person, starting from the coach and ending with the room 7 DM, to encourage the veteran players (or players that have already gone through the rooms) to be understanding of others and allow them to courtesy of enjoying their experience.
If all they want is to ensure the max pulls at the end, they are participating for the wrong reasons.

Arthur wrote: I have thought the same thing Fiddy, but as you already stated it is a dream. What makes TD unique is that you only get it a couple times a year.. If TD was year round at a Westworld like Ren Fair set up it could hurt the over all demand. Keep them always wanting more. But what is a good Idea is TD moving to INDY. Seems logical on many levels, but then again I do not know what is really keeping them in Illinois in the first place. If your business and world revolves around Indy and the demand for you is in Indy and real support of your business is in Indy..Why would you be in Carbondale Illinois? At any rate I think if TD did move to Indy it would help the entire dungeon experience on many levels. Just my two cents.

I suspect what keeps them in Carbondale is that they enjoy living in Carbondale. I can totally understand having no desire to move.

I'm sure you are right that having TD be always available might make it less special. But I also suspect that there is some space between where it is now and when it would reach that level of saturation.

I was thinking of an option.

If you have any players less than lvl 4 in your group, each player can have 4 purple/relics or less. No legendary allowed. But if the "under lvl 4" players are last minute "stand by" buyers this rule would not count and "stand by" players would be told this before they buy the ticket. Obviously there can be some tweaking of this but in general I think it could help with the problem TD has.

Fiddy,
The big issue with pre-selling runs is that GenCon does not like it at all. GenCon's whole philosophy is that you buy tickets for all events at GenCon from them using their system which they try to make as fair as possible (using their definition of "Fair".)

Jeff has spent years getting a VERY limited exemption to that rule. It is EXTREMELY unlikely that he is going to be able to get a larger exemption.

Here is my suggestion, but I don't know how effective it would be to put in place.

As we all saw this year, we has a fairly decent sized mid section walking in. A massive mostly unused front area. And what I could guess some extra on the side.

Add a new special "Beginners" run. Make it say 6 rooms. Half puzzle, half combat. No other variance. Players who complete it get ONE treasure pull. No treasure stamps in the rooms. Treasure pulling tokens will not generate extra treasure pulls doing a "Beginners" run. Monsters are weaker in strength. Almost Kobald'ish. Puzzles are challenging, maybe a rehash of one from a few years ago. Charge the new players say $10 - $20 less. Doing this should discourage the power players since their treasure pulls will be eliminated and any real challenge in the fights too easy.

Say we still need a little more room, a suggestion to help get True tavern back. Move say the TD store out to say across the street back to the Marriott. Get a smallish board room. Set up True tavern there with the store and the Player vs Player tables. I'm not that out of shape to walk across the street to enjoy True Tavern, and partake in the fun there too.

Rebeg wrote: Move say the TD store out to say across the street back to the Marriott. Get a smallish board room. Set up True tavern there with the store and the Player vs Player tables. I'm not that out of shape to walk across the street to enjoy True Tavern, and partake in the fun there too.

Moving the store into the Marriott would likely tick off a lot of newer players. It would also be hard to restock treasure pulls.
Making it to your next run after pulling treasure would be tight. Potentially this would lead to more treasure tokens being kept out of circulation longer.

quip wrote:

Rebeg wrote: Move say the TD store out to say across the street back to the Marriott. Get a smallish board room. Set up True tavern there with the store and the Player vs Player tables. I'm not that out of shape to walk across the street to enjoy True Tavern, and partake in the fun there too.

Moving the store into the Marriott would likely tick off a lot of newer players. It would also be hard to restock treasure pulls.
Making it to your next run after pulling treasure would be tight. Potentially this would lead to more treasure tokens being kept out of circulation longer.

You can set up a person sitting at a card table with a box or two for the pulls. Do I really need to buy a T-shirt between runs, this years mug/glass or any other novelty item as a souvenir between my runs? No. It's items like that - that can be moved across the street if you set up a True Tavern for the players.

CrowOfPyke wrote: Here is the solution I would try to work out, being a software engineer nerd:
Work with the people at GenCon. Tie the player database of TD players to the GenCon database for ticket registration. Create "new player only" runs. If you try to buy a ticket for a "new player only" run, your name and GenCon ID are cross-checked with the TD database. If you exist in the TD database as a player who has already been on a TD run before, you are denied the ability to by a ticket to a "new player only" run. This could be done year-over-year, ie- you are new player, never been on a TD run before and do not exist in the TD database so you can go as many "new player only" runs as you wish this year. Next year, your account is flagged with a bit marker as well as your regular account information, preventing you from accessing "new player only" tickets in future years.

I don't think it is really feasible.

- Plenty of people buy tickets for others (friends, family members) but the system would have a hard time identifying it

- Plenty of players never bother registering in the TD database, so they would be seen as "new" even if they have played for many years

fishbowldave wrote: I was thinking of an option.

If you have any players less than lvl 4 in your group, each player can have 4 purple/relics or less. No legendary allowed. But if the "under lvl 4" players are last minute "stand by" buyers this rule would not count and "stand by" players would be told this before they buy the ticket. Obviously there can be some tweaking of this but in general I think it could help with the problem TD has.

Given the wide discrepancy in power levels even amongst UR's, I don't think it's a good idea.

Not to mention, putting additional restrictions on die-hard players and tokenholics is simply going to force more players to buy entire runs (like they already have to do in order to play harder difficulty levels).

Under this new system, even veterans and tokenholics who want to play NORMAL may need to buy entire runs just so they can use all their tokens.

George wrote: Fiddy,
The big issue with pre-selling runs is that GenCon does not like it at all. GenCon's whole philosophy is that you buy tickets for all events at GenCon from them using their system which they try to make as fair as possible (using their definition of "Fair".)

Jeff has spent years getting a VERY limited exemption to that rule. It is EXTREMELY unlikely that he is going to be able to get a larger exemption.

I agree with George.

It is also my (limited) understanding that GenCon does not like it when anyone (including TD) sells tickets through special mechanisms.

Jeff is already getting exemptions for Golden Ticket (not to mention being allowed to hold TD at Who's Yer Con).

Sadly, I do not personally believe this is an issue worth Jeff spending valuable political capital (with GenCon) on.