TOPIC: TDA1579079 True Grind Friday 3pm

Adeya wrote: Welcome to the run Aurket!

As for difficultly, I'd vote for anything other than Normal. But if I'm outvoted that's ok. I'm just happy I got a spot for Grind at GenCon this year.

I am indeed well-geared for the Wizard. But I also have a few tokens I can loan to others on the run if they want a boost including a Ring of Heroism and a few other miscellaneous relics and URs.

Definitely think we should try Hardcore. Despite the difficulties we had last year, I think this year will be very different.

And thanks for offering up some tokens on loan, Adeya...yes please! Will definitely take you up on that offer.

I should have an extra charm of heroism I can get plus I have the crown of might, boots or might, and girdle of might someone can borrow to get to lvl 5. I also will have some UR's to loan to help bolster the ranks.

I am pretty well geared myself for a couple of different classes.

If the new hardcore is easier than last years I would like to play the rogue. However if more firepower is needed or the 10th person really wants the rogue I can switch to something else.

The two grinds I played on hardcore last year were tough but got though both of them (no deaths in the party on first only three in the second).

David Harris wrote: Eric, yes, I definitely think tactics and strategy were the downfall for the group I ran with last year. When the purple worm started swallowing players. The better geared players where focused on the other combat board and despite pleas for assistance with the menacing worm, it took at least 5 rounds and several more swallowed players and a couple outright dead players to actually get them to assist. It was very much a slippery slop, cause once ingested the players pretty much had a 1-2 rounds of other action before they needed to down a healing potion every turn to keep from dying. So they couldn't take any other action.

I know you mentioned that you thought the builds were a bit to lopsided toward +hit/damage and should have focused more on AC. But I'll don't think that was the main problem -- it was definitely the communication.

I definitely agree with you that communication was the primary problem.

As for builds, I have seen several groups overspecialize:

Sometimes everyone in the group has like a 30+ AC but atrocious + hit/damage. They really struggle against monsters like the Purple Worm / Fire Snake (which use the Iuz snake head board) and literally can't hit unless they slide a 20+.

Alternatively, some groups focus only on + hit/damage (and can easily hit the Iuz snake by sliding on the body for a "12"). But many of these players have very low AC and aren't able to handle the damage they then take (they can dish it out but can't take it!).

On the builds, just to run that discussion out there. The stated write-up for Hardcore last year stated basically that a mostly Reds, some purple party should be able to handle hardcore. I equipped 7 of the players on that run. 3 level 5s, and 4 level 4s. The ACs were 17 (Wizard), 19, 19, 20, 21, 23, 26. Saves ranged from +5 to +15, most in the +8 to +10 range. To hit +6, +6, +7, +10, +10, +10. To Damage +4, +11, +11, +12, +13, +17.

Mind you that the design was based on Best in Slot Reds/Rares (from all years).

What classes were each of those players (maybe you could pair up classes with AC and hit/damage?).

David Harris wrote: I know you mentioned that you thought the builds were a bit to lopsided toward +hit/damage and should have focused more on AC. But I'll don't think that was the main problem -- it was definitely the communication.

On the builds, just to run that discussion out there. The stated write-up for Hardcore last year stated basically that a mostly Reds, some purple party should be able to handle hardcore. I equipped 7 of the players on that run. 3 level 5s, and 4 level 4s. The ACs were 17 (Wizard), 19, 19, 20, 21, 23, 26. Saves ranged from +5 to +15, most in the +8 to +10 range. To hit +6, +6, +7, +10, +10, +10. To Damage +4, +11, +11, +12, +13, +17.

Looking at the equipment list. I see mostly about 3 places where damage could be convert to AC, neck, bracers, and ring. So at most the ACs could be boast 2-3 points and damage would be lowered 4-6 points. Not sure this would real make all that much difference. Eric I'm interest to hear your thoughts on this.

Here is a quick hypothetical Red BiS analysis:

Torso: +8 AC for heavy armor, +5 AC for medium armor, +2 AC for Wizards

Head: +1 AC for heavy armor (and barbarian)

Offhand: +3 AC for shield (only +2 AC for Bard/Druid)

Feet: Boots of the Marauder are easily the best, for +1 AC

Finger: RoP +1 for +1 AC (other finger can be a Save ring of Energy resistance).

Neck: Torc of Natural Armor for +2 AC (or maybe Necklace of the Oak for +1/+1)

Wrists: Bracers of Defense for +1 AC (or maybe Bracers of Fire/Frost for +2 damage)

Using 4th level characters:

Barbarian: 11 (base) + 5 (torso) +1 (head) + 3 (shield) +1 (feet) + 1 (finger) = 22 with up to a 25 depending on your build.

Bard: 11 (base) + 5 (torso) + 2 (shield) +1 (feet) +1 (finger) +2 (neck) + 1 (bracers), with Bardsong requiring an action better to focus on AC = 23 AC

Cleric: 10 (base) + 8 (torso) + 3 (shield) +1 (feet) + 1 (finger) +2 (neck) +1 (bracers), at this level your main healer probably focuses on AC over attack = 26 AC

Druid: 12 (base) + 5 (torso) + 2 (shield) +1 (feet) + 1 (finger) = 21 with up to 24 depending on your build

Dwarf Fighter: 11 (base) + 8 (torso) + 3 (shield) +1 (feet) + 1 (finger) = 24 AC, with up to 27.

Elf Wizard: 11 (base) + 2 (torso) + 1 (finger) +2 (neck) +1 (bracers) = 17 AC

Human Fighter: 11 (base) + 8 (torso) + 3 (shield) +1 (feet) + 1 (finger) = 24 AC, with up to 27.

Monk: 16 (base) + 1 (torso) + 3 (waist) +1 (finger) = 21 AC with up to 24

Paladin: 11 (base) + 8 (torso) + 3 (shield) +1 (feet) + 1 (finger) +2 (neck) +1 (bracers), going with AC because of Guard = 27 AC

Ranger: 13 (base) + 5 (torso) +1 (feet) +1 (finger) = 20 AC, up to 23

Rogue: 13 (base) + 5 (torso) +1 (feet) +1 (finger) = 20 AC, up to 23

Wizard: 10 (base) + 2 (torso) + 1 (finger) +2 (neck) +1 (bracers) = 16 AC

So in summary:

Barbarian: 22-25
Bard: 23
Cleric: 26
Druid: 21-24
Dwarf Fighter: 24-27
Elf Wizard: 17
Fighter: 24-27
Monk: 21-24
Paladin: 27
Ranger: 20-23
Rogue: 20-23
Wizard: 16

17 (Wizard), 23 AC, and 26 AC look fair.

But: 19, 19, 20, 21 looks a bit low even when you are comparing to solely RED builds (with no UR's).

Factor in that you have a bunch of 5th level characters, decent amount of Purps, and some Relics and it does seem like your group emphasized offense over defense.

Incognito wrote: Sometimes everyone in the group has like a 30+ AC but atrocious + hit/damage. They really struggle against monsters like the Purple Worm / Fire Snake (which use the Iuz snake head board) and literally can't hit unless they slide a 20+.

I've seen groups struggle to hit a monster, spending rounds and rounds trying to get onto that 20 (taking heavy damage from environmental effects, or the monster's attacks while doing so) when what they really should have done, was to change tactics:

* If your Bard is in the other room, call him over to your side!
* Quaff a Bull's Strength potion for that extra +2/+2
* Get your best slider to wear Seylah's Cestus, and drop the monster's AC down!
* Bring in Spellcasters with Auto-hit spells
* Use auto-hit tokens like Horn of Blasting or Scroll: Call Lightning
* Use Scrolls/Sliding spells which only need to hit a 15+
* USE your special abilities! Get the Rogue to Flank; have your L5 fighter use his re-slide
* Let your heavy hitters go first, and everyone else focus on bumping them into the 20.
* Ask your Cleric to cast "Bless" - it may only be +1 to hit, but that may be the difference between only hitting on a 20, or being able to hit on a 19 as well!

I remember one of Henwy's runs doing this really well... when there was a group which couldn't hit my monster, they called over the guy with the best to-hit, fed him Bull's Strength, used a Bless, and then pulled out Seylah's Cestus for him to wear. 3 solid hits later, the rest of the party was hitting on 16+, and the monster came crashing down.

Raven wrote: I've seen groups struggle to hit a monster, spending rounds and rounds trying to get onto that 20 (taking heavy damage from environmental effects, or the monster's attacks while doing so) when what they really should have done, was to change tactics:

* If your Bard is in the other room, call him over to your side!
* Quaff a Bull's Strength potion for that extra +2/+2
* Get your best slider to wear Seylah's Cestus, and drop the monster's AC down!
* Bring in Spellcasters with Auto-hit spells
* Use auto-hit tokens like Horn of Blasting or Scroll: Call Lightning
* Use Scrolls/Sliding spells which only need to hit a 15+
* USE your special abilities! Get the Rogue to Flank; have your L5 fighter use his re-slide
* Let your heavy hitters go first, and everyone else focus on bumping them into the 20.
* Ask your Cleric to cast "Bless" - it may only be +1 to hit, but that may be the difference between only hitting on a 20, or being able to hit on a 19 as well!

I remember one of Henwy's runs doing this really well... when there was a group which couldn't hit my monster, they called over the guy with the best to-hit, fed him Bull's Strength, used a Bless, and then pulled out Seylah's Cestus for him to wear. 3 solid hits later, the rest of the party was hitting on 16+, and the monster came crashing down.

Yeah, these are the types of strategy changes that good groups *should* be doing more often, but unfortunately they rarely do.

There are plenty of buff spells (Guidance, Bless) which are often neglected.

Against last year's Raksasha, I saw one or two groups just decide to have everyone blow Horns of Blasting every round. (A bit cheesy but ultimately effective!).

Had to get a chance to look this up again: Here's some more insight into our builds last year...

Bard lvl 5 +7/+13 AC19
Cleric lvl 4 +6/+12 AC 26
Druid lvl 4 +6/+11 AC19
Dw Fighter lvl 4 +10/+17 AC21
Monk lvl 5 +10/+11 AC20
Rogue (Ranged Build) lvl +10/+4 AC23
Wizard lvl 5 +1/+2 AC17

Decision for damage over AC: So looking back we choose damage over AC most of the time to include:

Brawler's Mug over shields
Necklace of the Oak over AC necks (we had no Torcs, so at best +1 or +3/-1 saves)
Bracers of Fire over Bracers of Defense
Ring of Frost or Ring of +4 saves over Ring of Protection +1
Boots of the Marauder or higher was the norm

So I guess what I hear you saying Eric is you would recommend a more balanced approached maybe 50/50 to AC items v. damage items. That sound about right?

Also again -- this group was really poor on strategy. Which I don't think this year's group will suffer from. Fingers crossed.

David Harris wrote: Had to get a chance to look this up again: Here's some more insight into our builds last year...

Bard lvl 5 +7/+13 AC19

Lower AC than what a Red Bard would have (of course at the UR+ level you have more options for Rings, Amulets, and Bracers).

Cleric lvl 4 +6/+12 AC 26

Ok.

Druid lvl 4 +6/+11 AC19

AC seems low. You can get AC 19 with just armor and a shield.

Dw Fighter lvl 4 +10/+17 AC21

AC seems low, unless you are going for a two-handed build.

Monk lvl 5 +10/+11 AC20

Ok.

Rogue (Ranged Build) lvl +10/+4 AC23
Wizard lvl 5 +1/+2 AC17

Ok.

Decision for damage over AC: So looking back we choose damage over AC most of the time to include:

Yeah, that was the conclusion/assessment I had based on your stats.

Brawler's Mug over shields

Really depends on the character. Brawlers Mug is a giveaway for the Rogue and Wizard. The Bard and Druid are only sacrificing +2 AC, but with other characters you are trading +3 AC for just +2 damage.

If it is an Orb of Might and you are getting the +1 level, it makes it more worthwhile to give up a shield but it is an important and difficult choice.

Two-handed builds are tricky because most of the time, the extra damage on the damage wheel is not worth the AC you are giving up. But with the right token build (Ring of Brilliance/Enervation, Boots of the East Wind, Gauntlets of Linked Fury, Charm of Rampage) it is reasonably viable.

Necklace of the Oak over AC necks (we had no Torcs, so at best +1 or +3/-1 saves)

Necklace of the Oak is better than Oakskin Medallion.

But it is tougher to say whether +1 hit/damage is better than +2 AC.

Bracers of Fire over Bracers of Defense

Okay. The 2 damage is an okay tradeoff vs just +1 AC.

Contrast that with the Amulets where you are getting an equivalent (+1/+1) for +2 AC, and the Brawler's Mug where you are getting the 2 damage at +3 AC.

Ring of Frost or Ring of +4 saves over Ring of Protection +1

Okay.

Boots of the Marauder or higher was the norm

Okay.

So I guess what I hear you saying Eric is you would recommend a more balanced approached maybe 50/50 to AC items v. damage items. That sound about right?

Yes and no.

I am saying that overspecialization can be dangerous if your strategy and the rest of your build doesn't that that into account.

If you are going all out for + hit/damage, then you will have low AC (and maybe saves) so you will take a lot of damage yourself. It may not be an issue IF you are willing to burn lots of healing consumables (like you did) OR if everyone is using Cloaks of Shadowskin OR your Cleric and Druid have Lenses of Divine Sight with the Eldritch set.

Similarly, going all out for AC will cause most groups problems. But it might be okay if your plan is to use lots of auto-damage items (your Paladin guards your Wizard who will be burning auto-damage scrolls or using the Mad Evoker's Charm). Or if your entire group plans to just ignore sliding and blow Horns of Blasting all day long. Or if the plan is for everyone to go Keen/Smiting.

I would personally argue that a 100% + hit/damage approach and a 100% AC/saves approach are probably inefficient because in some slots, the trade offs are very costly.

Take another look at the analysis above for Bracers/Rings vs Amulet vs Shield.

The best analogies I can think of are decreasing marginal productivity due to increasing costs. Or it's like trying to maximize a multi-variable equation in calculus.

Also again -- this group was really poor on strategy. Which I don't think this year's group will suffer from. Fingers crossed.

Yeah, gotta work on that TEAMWORK!

Adeya and Aurket --

Time grows near for GENCON if you would like I'll be glad to build a party card for this run, if you want to post your builds.

Also, I have the ability to make 6 of my 7, level 5, so you both mentioned the possibility of using either a Ring of Heroism or Charm of Heroism...that would be great so we are all 5th level!

Also 10th person -- are you out there.

I'd be happy to send you my build, but I can't until this Wednesday or Thursday. So, if you don't hear from me by then, send me another poke.

@Adeya - No problem! Also, I seem to remember your build utilizes the Mad Evoker's Charm; I wanted to brief our Cleric ahead of time on your healing requirements, what works best? He has Lenses of Divine Sight, so he should be able to heal you and someone else each round.

Here is what I am currently planning on going with

Rogue:

Head: Hood of Elvenkind
Eyes: Goggle of Serpent Sight Goggles of seeing
Left ear: Earcuff of Vitality
Right Ear: Earcuff of Orbits
Neck: Stu-pendous
Armor: Dragonhide
Wrists: +2 Bracers of Defense
Hands: Gauntletns of Ogre power
Melee Weapon: +3 Viper Strike Fang
Melee offhand: Brawler's mug
Missile: +1 Drow lt. crossbow
Back: Greater Cloak of Destiny
Left Ring: Ring of protection +2
Right Ring: Ring of Fortitude
Waist: Viper Strike Belt
Shirt: Viper Strike Shirt
Boots: Boots of the North wind

Charm 1: Charm of Heroism
Charm 2: Draco-Lich
Charm 3: Charm of Enlightenment

Ion 1: Amethyst Ovoid
Ion 2: Beryl Prism
Ion 3: Faceted Amber
Ion 4: Iridescent Spindle
Ion 5: Ruby Rhombus
Ion 6: Topaz Sphere
Ion 7: Sapphire Prism

Special 1: Tooth of Cavadar
Special 2: Pouch of Tulz
Special 3: Figurine of Power: Scarab
Special 4: Complete Rod of 7 parts
special 5: Greater Alchemist Pouch