TOPIC: Nightmare Difficulty

EN 429 wrote: This isn't about the treasure it's about challenge. I want to burn all my spells, deplete consumables and have a couple guys make it out alive. Like the Smoak year, these would be epic adventures. I'd almost say double the HP of monsters in Nightmare (from what it is) and there to hit bonus should be a +18-25 .

I can understand that. I am just not certain if everyone that plays nightmare would agree with you. Not certain.

bpsymington wrote: With the wizards and the MEC, I expect we'll see a big increase in monster HP next year.

That's a good point, Brian. Since we play Hardcore, I'm actually pretty hesitant about adding a second Wizard and giving them both the MEC (our current Wizard doesn't have it yet). Since the Cleric and Druid have both Lenses of Divine Sight and the 2 Item Eldritch Set, we'd have no problem keeping them both healed up, but I'm hesitant because between the two of them with all their damage spells doubled they could do the majority of damage to the monsters just themselves, and it might make the combats too easy.

Mike Steele wrote:

bpsymington wrote: With the wizards and the MEC, I expect we'll see a big increase in monster HP next year.

That's a good point, Brian. Since we play Hardcore, I'm actually pretty hesitant about adding a second Wizard and giving them both the MEC (our current Wizard doesn't have it yet). Since the Cleric and Druid have both Lenses of Divine Sight and the 2 Item Eldritch Set, we'd have no problem keeping them both healed up, but I'm hesitant because between the two of them with all their damage spells doubled they could do the majority of damage to the monsters just themselves, and it might make the combats too easy.

I have: Greater Ring of Focus, MEC, 3 piece Cabal, +2 SOP and Earcuff

On Nightmare I start every combat with 30 force damage without triggering the MEC, 52 if I trigger it.

On Final bosses I do 64 to the whole room followed by 36 to the boss or 64 twice depending on the coordination of the room.

In Hardcore I can take a boss to less than 1/2 life in 1 turn, in Nightmare I do about the same.

That said those are my BIG hits, outside of that I drop back down to 10/16 damage per hit.

If we want the monsters to be a proper challenge, we could always invite Incognito to stat the Nightmare monsters.

(On second thought, tell him they are "HardCore" monsters and let him stat them. Then call it "Nightmare" and let players have at. I guarantee a lot more deaths.)

Raven wrote: If we want the monsters to be a proper challenge, we could always invite Incognito to stat the Nightmare monsters.

(On second thought, tell him they are "HardCore" monsters and let him stat them. Then call it "Nightmare" and let players have at. I guarantee a lot more deaths.)

I don't know what you are talking about. My Hardcore Grind group did fine Only 1 death

Raven wrote: If we want the monsters to be a proper challenge, we could always invite Incognito to stat the Nightmare monsters.

(On second thought, tell him they are "HardCore" monsters and let him stat them. Then call it "Nightmare" and let players have at. I guarantee a lot more deaths.)

Or we could just let you get creative with the monsters and use them to their best ability Raven.

The thought of blink dogs still makes me shudder.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I don't know what you are talking about. My Hardcore Grind group did fine Only 1 death

I could be wrong, but I bet that's more death than you suffered on any "Nightmare" run in the Dungeon.

cdsmith wrote: Or we could just let you get creative with the monsters and use them to their best ability Raven.

The thought of blink dogs still makes me shudder.

That was Incognito's brilliant idea! I just did my best to implement it.

jedibcg wrote:

EN 429 wrote: This isn't about the treasure it's about challenge. I want to burn all my spells, deplete consumables and have a couple guys make it out alive. Like the Smoak year, these would be epic adventures. I'd almost say double the HP of monsters in Nightmare (from what it is) and there to hit bonus should be a +18-25 .

I can understand that. I am just not certain if everyone that plays nightmare would agree with you. Not certain.

Then they should do as Mike suggested and switch to Hardcore.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

bpsymington wrote: With the wizards and the MEC, I expect we'll see a big increase in monster HP next year.

That's a good point, Brian. Since we play Hardcore, I'm actually pretty hesitant about adding a second Wizard and giving them both the MEC (our current Wizard doesn't have it yet). Since the Cleric and Druid have both Lenses of Divine Sight and the 2 Item Eldritch Set, we'd have no problem keeping them both healed up, but I'm hesitant because between the two of them with all their damage spells doubled they could do the majority of damage to the monsters just themselves, and it might make the combats too easy.

I have: Greater Ring of Focus, MEC, 3 piece Cabal, +2 SOP and Earcuff

On Nightmare I start every combat with 30 force damage without triggering the MEC, 52 if I trigger it.

On Final bosses I do 64 to the whole room followed by 36 to the boss or 64 twice depending on the coordination of the room.

In Hardcore I can take a boss to less than 1/2 life in 1 turn, in Nightmare I do about the same.

That said those are my BIG hits, outside of that I drop back down to 10/16 damage per hit.

How do you get to 30 force damage without triggering the MEC?

EN 429 wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

EN 429 wrote: This isn't about the treasure it's about challenge. I want to burn all my spells, deplete consumables and have a couple guys make it out alive. Like the Smoak year, these would be epic adventures. I'd almost say double the HP of monsters in Nightmare (from what it is) and there to hit bonus should be a +18-25 .

I can understand that. I am just not certain if everyone that plays nightmare would agree with you. Not certain.

Then they should do as Mike suggested and switch to Hardcore.

I can certainly understand those that want to try the hardest level of difficulty but want a more survivable experience than you're describing. Those are just a couple of the variables Jeff has to juggle when creating difficulty levels, not only the difference in power levels in individuals and groups, but also the different expectations and desires going into the Dungeon. Some groups are going to want the most insanely difficult challenge possible with very little chance of survival, while others will want a really difficult challenge but to survive nearly every time, while others just want a cakewalk on their way to both participation tokens. No one viewpoint is necessarily better than another, since people are all so different from each other and want different things.

I should point out that we weren't really thrilled to switch to Hardcore, it was a hard pill to swallow that after all the money we spent on tokens that we weren't as competitive on the highest difficulty level, but I made a conscious (and economic) decision to not try to compete in the Relic/Legendary/Artifact arms race and switch to a lower difficulty level. I will say that our group has been 1,000% happier on hardcore the last two years than we were on Nightmare the three previous years. If we had the Hardcore option sooner perhaps so many of our group members might not have quit.

Mike I am at the opposite point with my group. Some are lobbying to try Nightmare because we had a relatively easy time on Hardcore this year. I honestly don't think we are ready for Nightmare yet. I know we are not on combat, but maybe on Puzzle...maybe.

JOSEPH ADLESICK wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

bpsymington wrote: With the wizards and the MEC, I expect we'll see a big increase in monster HP next year.

That's a good point, Brian. Since we play Hardcore, I'm actually pretty hesitant about adding a second Wizard and giving them both the MEC (our current Wizard doesn't have it yet). Since the Cleric and Druid have both Lenses of Divine Sight and the 2 Item Eldritch Set, we'd have no problem keeping them both healed up, but I'm hesitant because between the two of them with all their damage spells doubled they could do the majority of damage to the monsters just themselves, and it might make the combats too easy.

I have: Greater Ring of Focus, MEC, 3 piece Cabal, +2 SOP and Earcuff

On Nightmare I start every combat with 30 force damage without triggering the MEC, 52 if I trigger it.

On Final bosses I do 64 to the whole room followed by 36 to the boss or 64 twice depending on the coordination of the room.

In Hardcore I can take a boss to less than 1/2 life in 1 turn, in Nightmare I do about the same.

That said those are my BIG hits, outside of that I drop back down to 10/16 damage per hit.

How do you get to 30 force damage without triggering the MEC?

Ah young Neophyte

Magic Missile (11) + Greater Ring (3) + Bracelets of the Cabal (1) = 15
Earcuff of Energy to duplicate the Magic Missile + 3 piece Cabal set to cast in the same round = 30 (53 with double MEC)