TOPIC: End the Combat and Puzzle Variations in 2014?

Raven wrote:
There was also a room a couple years ago where players were given an actual choice of "Puzzle vs Combat" for the end room and the DM directed them into a different doorway depending on their answer. Unfortunately, with space at a premium, this might not be a viable option.

Love that idea

Only one version of each dungeon seems okay. I think this actually greatly simplifies the whole process. If there is some in game variation all the better. And in light of the other purposed changes this sounds great.

The scariest mentioned was the one about the 10 minute room. Time is already so precious I think that would greatly take away from the product. Can you imagine only 20 minutes to fill out a party card with a bunch of token heavy players. It can be hard enough in 24 minutes. With the price the way it is, I think people will want a full 2 hours of fun!

Now of slots and limited availability. I think it would be great if there was some way to expand the number of True Grind slots. There are so few and they are hard to come by, and it's so fun!

You could just have one dungeon be 4P/3C and the other be 3P/4C. I wouldn't advertise that difference anywhere, though.

bpsymington wrote: You could just have one dungeon be 4P/3C and the other be 3P/4C. I wouldn't advertise that difference anywhere, though.

Exactly...that would be perfect. Plus the last couple years the line between combat and puzzles has blurred, combats with puzzle elements and vise versa. I think we will see more of that.

I could live with 3C/3P and one room where combat could be avoided by solving a puzzle. Might be hard to pull off though.

Still would prefer a two path solution.

Hmm I would say don't shorten the run for any reason. This will have a very bad backlash.

Removing the puzzle/combat variation would make some things easier like scheduling.

I'll personally feel like I'm losing half of my TD experience because I run them "all" and would have fewer to run through. I liked getting to see an additional room or 2 even if I repeated the entire run to do so.

The hidden variation might be ok but I can see a circumstance where a few players are repeating the run exactly to experience the variation and they cause issues for the group they are in or don't get to experience the variation they wanted. So that could get tricky.
"I'm Doing B because the first time I went through my group did A"


From an outsider perspective, the different puzzle/combat choice is just weird and unnecessary. The ability to choose a different path or feel you have some choice over your destiny is Huge. People want a "say" in what happens and it draws them in. If they run puzzle and combat of the same run expecting a big difference they are sadly when it doesn't happen.


I wish there didn't have to be a change but such is life.

valetutto wrote: The ability to choose a different path or feel you have some choice over your destiny is Huge. People want a "say" in what happens and it draws them in.

Exactly. Even just one "alternate" room in a dungeon would create a fork...at least in the minds of the players. Just ONE room where there is a choice about what the next room will be can create the illusion of a twisting maze of passages, and give unsuspecting players the feeling of being lost in a very dangerous place.

Heck, it doesn't even need to be an alternate room. Just the appearance of an alternate path may be enough. For example, having two exits from a room and making it appear all the world as if this is a fork in the dungeon, however those two corridors could open into the exact same room! (The DM could mark on the party card some sign to note which exit they took, so that later DMs might handle things later in the dungeon, to make the choice of exit actually meaningful.)

Of course, doing the "two hallways" method may upset some people who do the run again specifically to find out where the other doorway leads... :/

Jeff, I'd also suggest that you not shorten the rooms to 10 minutes, although I could live with a change of 10 minute rooms but 9 rooms instead of 7 (which would still give you the increased throughput but give people the bonus of two extra rooms in exchange for the shortened time.

Another suggestion is to eliminate events such as True Grind or some sort of special AG Dungeon, which takes up space and volunteers but has very little throughput, and replace it with a Dungeon with more throughput, giving additional tickets. It always seemed like a waste to go to all the trouble of designing True Grind but only having the ability for a small number of players to participate.

The new Dungeon could be either a retro Dungeon or maybe another copy of one of the two Dungeons. Why not make it a retro Dungeon, 10 minutes per room, maybe at a slightly lower price? Not much design work for you since it is reusing rooms, and you can fit in a ton of additional tickets that way.

Anticipating some interesting discussion at Who's Yer Con.

True Grind is actually a very efficient event. It's one room, no hallways, one DM, and no blue hands, npcs or props to speak of. I've only played it once, but I don't see the point of losing it. It always sells out - it might be better to have two or three of them.

I think the 3/4 split would work. There could be four treasure rooms (two each combat and puzzle), but only three would grant chips: one combat, one puzzle, and the third determined by the party in the coaching room.

Disbeeleaf wrote: We have no special love for the combat vs. puzzle variations, so no loss there. I think predicability in TD is a negative anyway. The more uncertainty there is within reason, the better.

I think the issue you want to overcome is the multiple ticket purchases by veteran players.

I think you were on the right track earlier in the year with an extra dungeon for Adventurer Guild holders. If you can swing the space and support, offer three dungeons, each unique and different from the others. Two would be the standard two dungeons that are offered each year. Offer one completion token for each. The third dungeon would be only for Adventurer Guild members, who just happen to be veteran players who buy lots of tickets. Offer both of the completion tokens in the AG dungeon. Charge more for the AG dungeon, allow more time in the rooms, include interactive multi room NPCs, make it a serious dungeon that will take our breath away with clever brilliance.

Also, expand True Grind so an extended time schedule is offered. That way it will absorb veterans for longer. It only takes up one room but it does require an experienced DM.

As TD expands, the challenge will be to keep the veterans happy and attract new players at the same time. Each group requires a different kind of encouragement. No one said it would be simple, but it is certainly doable.

The other thing you need to do is keep the software working like a charm so no one ever has reason to doubt it. As it is, no one has confidence in the records.

I agree with much of what is said here. Unfortunately, Gen Con Indy's massive growth has been both a boon and a bust for TD. In 2014 we are moving to the Exhibit Hall A which is right next door to our location in 2013. This new space has the same length, but it is about 16 feet less wide. We have to do some major changes to the storyscape space to shoehorn in our event. Adding in a 5th mini-event will be nearly impossible, but I am trying to mini-max the event space as best as possible.

Perhaps we can expand some kind of Spring event to thank the AG members for their support. This year we are getting our feet wet at Who's Yer Con, and I hope to build on that greatly in 2015.

Also, for the first time ever in TD history, we are hitting an "total tickets" wall that we have previously been able to break through by adding more dungeons. I don't see much of a way to expand ticket numbers, so perhaps a Spring event would be a good way to give AG members more benefit for their patronage.

Mike Steele wrote: Jeff, I'd also suggest that you not shorten the rooms to 10 minutes, although I could live with a change of 10 minute rooms but 9 rooms instead of 7 (which would still give you the increased throughput but give people the bonus of two extra rooms in exchange for the shortened time.

Another suggestion is to eliminate events such as True Grind or some sort of special AG Dungeon, which takes up space and volunteers but has very little throughput, and replace it with a Dungeon with more throughput, giving additional tickets. It always seemed like a waste to go to all the trouble of designing True Grind but only having the ability for a small number of players to participate.

The new Dungeon could be either a retro Dungeon or maybe another copy of one of the two Dungeons. Why not make it a retro Dungeon, 10 minutes per room, maybe at a slightly lower price? Not much design work for you since it is reusing rooms, and you can fit in a ton of additional tickets that way.

The other "funnel" that dictates how many tickets we can offer is the big number of volunteers we must have to put on an event. I'd love to have 4 dungeons and 1 mini-event, but I am not sure we can recruit and train enough volunteers to staff them all.

This is an interesting idea, though -- and one worth considering.