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In 2013 our plans call for us to add an additional adventure to the event. There will be two consecutive adventure modules, and each module will have two variations of either a combat or puzzle orientation. The first module called “Lycans Afoot” tasks the party to travel through a dark forest in search of a tower, while the second module called “Golembane” challenges the party to reach the top of tower.

TOPIC: POd about no saves/no dodges

Re: POd about no saves/no dodges 5 years 5 months ago #73

Personally I'd love it if the GMs were given the mandate to allow creative solutions if players had the tokens to try. Worst case players could still try the proper solution just for fun if they were board after the room was "solved". Maybe not on nightmare but if coaches knew they had the latitude to let stuff happen we might not have to worry so much about maintaining consistency between parallel rooms.
Semper Gumby, Always flexible.

Sartre sits in in a coffee shop and asks for a coffee without cream. The barista apologizes “Sorry, we don't have any cream. Can I offer you a coffee without milk instead?”

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Re: POd about no saves/no dodges 5 years 5 months ago #74

Cynthia Wood makes some excellent and well thought points that we agree with.

Most notably:

When the DM becomes the adversary of the players, this is an affront to the game itself. The adventure is for the players. The DM is the moderator. The "enemy" DM has failed in his or her task.

An unforeseen outcome of overreliance on tokens, especially powerful tokens, has been that tokens are often planned and expected to be part of the solution. Player creativity is the loser. Creativity is the essence of D&D, and it should be of TD as well. The DM (or game) that inhibits creative solutions has decreased the enjoyment of the game for the players. Take that one to the bank.

The other side of the coin and an important distinction to be noted between TD and D&D is that there are many DMs in TD, and almost all have minimal training and minimal experience. Best DM judgement is all too often weak. Unfortunately, the need to make sure unprepared and incapable DMs perform adequately can sometimes overcome the need to ensure that creativity opportunities among the players is protected. I see it as a fine balance that is easy to lose, and I don't really blame anyone for that. I see the solution as more permanent, experienced DMs, but in the current business model - it ain't gonna happen.

In the short term case, if DM training can include a short note on allowing reasonable flexibility, and a brief reminder not to operate as the enemy of the players. This does not mean throw softballs to the players, just be fair, then I think a positive step in the right direction will have been taken.
Of all the traits of humanity, there is only one we do not share with other species, which sets us apart and makes us unique <br />-- the ability to imagine.

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Last edit: by Disbeeleaf.

Re: POd about no saves/no dodges 5 years 5 months ago #75

I have been saying for a long time now that TD should hang a sign out front that says:

Creative solutions encouraged. Different DMs have the flexibility to rule as they see fit on a creative solution. Things that have worked for your friends may not work for you because of this.
The Worst Rogue Ever!
Member of the Michigan Marauders
Ranger Extra-ordinary
--Rocky


BEWARE THERE ARE SILVER BULETTES NEARBY!

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Re: POd about no saves/no dodges 5 years 5 months ago #76

Ugh, creative solutions in a physical challenge cause a fair number of issues.

Lets use the tree for an example. I think if I use a bunch of 10' poles I can play an elaborate game of chopsticks and lift the egg out. I should not be allowed to just show a stack of 10' pole tokens and assume it works. Likewise I should not be allowed to just "rope" the egg and assume that works. A physical challenge should require physically doing something with a prop.

Does this mean that creativity is hindered? Only as long as props are hindered. If you want to use a grappling hook and rope and none are provided for use you've been hindered.

Should TD provide gear props for every occasion? No, but they could be avaible a bit more often if if they are unlikely to help.
If this becomes a cost factor to provide the coordinator/adventure design team should try and provide a reasonable explination as to why common gear items won't work.

For example, don't want to provide a rope and grappling hook for the tree encounter? no problems "It turns out that the mouth of the opening is too narrow for grapling hooks and the tree's limbs catch the rope every time you try and throw it." or some other reasons all the common gear can't be used.

If it is determined that creative solutions are allowed for the room some suggestions as to what can be used should be provided to the room DMs and throughly explained.

I'm not against creative solutions but there isn't a "skill check" the players can roll, its not that type of game. They actually have to do it. You don't say "i look for traps" you actually do it, so you shouldn't be allowed to say "I rope it" you should be forced to actually do it.

I generally think more props should be avaible for people to try crazy stuff with but I understand the complications with this.

Now, lets not confuse using common gear creatively with magic items that serve a purpose. If the boots say "allows wearer to walk over any water" and you make a room with water, they should get to walk over it. Even if it means shortening the encounter for them. Go them for wearing the boots. If you don't there needs to be a Really good reason for this, not just "this is extra special water" Just make it lava or something else.
- the spirits pull you under, isn't bad but somewhat lame, because it can be countered with, but i run really fast. -


Everyone wants consistancy and the best way to handle it is through good training and having everything well explained. Providing more options, through avaible props, is a good way to allow players the ability to feel creative but still keep things consistant.
Sweet a combat room, we won't take damage!

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Re: POd about no saves/no dodges 5 years 5 months ago #77

As a tri-fecta like most commenting here (player , coach, certified DM) I'd like to make a couple of comments

1) Coaches are under an enormous time constraint in the coaching room. Mistakes will be made; most of us try to error in the favor of the player. The Issue here is coaching training for 2013 I feel was not disseminated widely enough and very few coaches are actually full token collectors. I have my phone with tokendb up as well as the spreedsheet calculator for the tricky situations.

If you want a consistent coaching experience bring a pre-printed character sheet any time you have more then just a few tokens. Yes the coach can help but remember we get 2.4 minutes with you.

2) DMs .. this is a sad but true statement
Not all DMs are good DMs. I personnally have had some amazing DMs and some really really bad ones. (Like ones that can't figure out the wizard board)

There is a small lack of training, though no where near the coaches issue (There is a TON more knowledge the coach needs)

Not all DM's LARP .. or atleast they start out well .. but by the 4th or 5th hour ... they are too tired and just want the shift over. Shift length is a BIG issue. 4 hours should be max in order to keep a cheerful DM, but this is not logistically possible.

DMs need to love what they are doing. If it is just a job, they get a bit more ... "well its not in my notes" so "NO". (or for me I get a GREAT Thrill from DMing. I consider it better then playing honestly)

DMs NEED TO PLAY ! I know a few DMs and coaches that NEVER have played TD. (at least they say that). If DMs haven't played they can become a rule monger easily, not to mention they can never improvise when players get creative.


3) PUSH DAMAGE = Eldritch Damage. Pretty sure Stu had told me this last year and it was somewhere in either the DM guide or notes.

All other damage is preventable by some type of means. Players and DMs should NEVER argue. The player is tracking health and should know if they take less damage from some damage type. As a coach lat year I told my players specifically if the DM says it's shock damage just reduce it by 1 for the ioun cube, there is no need to inform the DM you are reducing it.

4) As for the pond and boots of water walking ... in reality some tokens were made to ensure a player / team success in certain situations. I disagree but respect the ruling of the boots don't help. They should negate the puzzle for that character period end of story. (That's the cost for token design and supporting your major source of income for TD. Sometimes you CAN pay to win.) At the very least the ruling should have allowed people with the boots to take no damage from the water as "the spirits can stop your progress but are unable to pull you under" ... I think that would have been more fair.

5) Damage Types and monsters
Wow the hornets nest that this is. Right now there are about 8 different damage types in TD, and there can always be more added. Putting a check box on there for each type will just be a p.i.t.a.
for coaches and DMs. 8 check boxes for melee .. 8 for range ... 10 characters ... 160 check boxes ? insanity.

We need a real ruling from Jeff that can make sense and still streamline the process of DMing combat. Remember the more time the DM takes to figure out Damage .. THE LESS DAMAGE YOU CAN DO. You have 12 minutes .... if you can get a slide every 2 minutes .. you get 6 rounds of combat ... if it is extended to 3 minutes a round ... you get 4. Nightmare bosses are excited when you extend the time between rounds !!!

It is simple ... For the DM when the player says ... well 3 points from the boots are cold damage .. the DM asks ... is any of that fire damage in your other +7 damage ? If yes .. take the number and move on ... if no .. give the player an extra 3 points. Never make a player dig for a token that is not being cashed in or otherwise EXPLICITLY stated that it must be shown. time is damage.

DMs need to remember a key element .. you are representing True Dungeon. The player experience is what TD sells. If it isn't game breaking ... nod .. smile and move on. You may not be a traditional "employee" as we are volunteers. We need to remember that the TD staff has entrusted us to be part of this great company and experience.


6) I WANT PLAYER FEEDBACK FORMS !!!! in the treasure room should be a staff member that can handle customer service and issues, as well as provide a feedback form for players. We are in line for a while getting treasure done ... Even a staff member taking a survey of players (say for an extra token pull) we can start to weed out the bad dm's and provide onsite and timely counseling for Dms that got negative feedback or need a rule reminder.

TD should also reward DMs and coached that had a POSITIVE feedback from players. On the spot treasure pull token reward can go a long way to keep a great DM great the rest of the 8 hours.

The forums are used by maybe 5% of the actual TD players. (Yes this)

If someone had a bad enough experience to come here, make an account, and post then I would like the community as a whole to stand up and say We will be better.


2014 I plan to keep up the energy and fun I had in 2013. we can all make it a great experience.
Anthony Brown
a.k.a. Kartas Starfurie

Rage of Dragons Co-guild Leader
TD Certified DM, Coach

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Re: POd about no saves/no dodges 5 years 5 months ago #78

Anthony brown wrote: coaching training for 2013 I feel was not disseminated widely enough

Would you mind elaborating on that? Please either post in this forum or PM me (whichever you feel more comfortable with) what you feel the Coach Coordinators could/should have done better. We genuinely want to know. Thank You
Have you looked it up in the TDb ?
Please post TDb corrections/suggestions in this thread .
If I write something in teal, it should not be taken seriously.

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Re: POd about no saves/no dodges 5 years 5 months ago #79

Druegar wrote:

Anthony brown wrote: coaching training for 2013 I feel was not disseminated widely enough

Would you mind elaborating on that? Please either post in this forum or PM me (whichever you feel more comfortable with) what you feel the Coach Coordinators could/should have done better. We genuinely want to know. Thank You

i havent made up my mind if i am coaching again, but if i do here is a thought for training

maybe split the group up(if i dont coach, i would still help with this)
You have enough senior coaches

newer people with the main guys (Druegar etc)

few years experience (with me, Tobey etc)

senior coaches...hand a sheet of quick new updates

there is enough room now, in the caching area

That way it is smaller groups and people dont lose their voice on the training day talking
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First solo Nightmare survivor-2014 Viper pit

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