TOPIC: POd about no saves/no dodges

Toran wrote: I had always been told that puzzle damage wasn't able to be soaked previously.

Push Damage /= Puzzle Damage
Push cannot be prevented by any means
Puzzle damage might be preventable

I will make sure that's included in the DMG (remind me if I forget) and mention it to Jeff and Stu for training next year.

Seth Murray wrote: Either way, neither my bare fist nor my Orb are magic, but he was wanting to deny the ring due to the Orb. I won the argument, but it was a little hair-raising, given that I had spent a lot of time researching this issue and sniffing around for the surprisingly rare Ring of the Wolf.

I'm glad you won the argument because you were/are absolutely correct. Here is the definition of "Magical" as stated on page 24 in the Quick Token Reference :

---

Other than Silver or Masterwork weapons/ammunition (which are the only exceptions), if a weapon has any kind of + To Hit or + Damage printed on the token, it counts as "magical".
Therefore, the following broad classifications are observed:

• Alchemical (Holy Water, Sacred Hand Grenade, etc.) = not magical
• Dwarven/Elven/Faerie-Iron/Gnomish = magical
• Masterwork = not magical
• Mighty = not magical
• Runestone (if it gives a + To Hit or + Damage) = magical
• Silver = not magical
• +1 Silver = magical

---

Because the Orb of Might does not explicitly say "+1 Damage" or "+1 To Hit", it counts as non-magical. While a +2 bonus to Strength has the net result of higher To Hit and Damage, "+2 STR" is NOT the same as literally saying "+1 Damage" or "+1 To Hit".

Furthermore, Orb of Might specifically says it's a non-magical weapon in its stat block.

And if that wasn't enough, the TDb entry for Ring of the Wolf links to a list of non-magical weapons it's compatible with--Orb of Might is on that list.

valetutto wrote: the orb of might is listed as a "unique artifact"

Where do you see that?

valetutto wrote: and does adjust your damage via adjusting your str which is a magical enchancement.

While I agree the letter of the law is currently on your side I think the spirit of the rule might go the other way.

But it does not fit the very specific definition of "magical" in the TD universe. Until and unless that definition is changed, Orb of Might will still count as a non-magical weapon. Believe me, I totally get why someone would think contrarily, but that's the definition we have.

Seth Murray wrote:

Raywind wrote:

Seth Murray wrote: I had an unfortunate encounter with a coach over the interaction between ring of the wolf and orb of might. He eventually let me have the +1 to hit, but only after he asked three directors and saw the tokendb entry showing the orb as non-magical

Orb of Might is an offhand weapon, and typically, only the mainhand +hit is recorded on the party card. Mainhand and offhand bonuses should *not* be added together.

Are you saying that a Ranger doesn't need to worry about the magic status of their offhand weapon?

that is exactly correct. whichever +to-hit bonus is less becomes irrelevant (though, you will have a less-than-optimal damage wheel on the weapon). i used to make sure my party card stat box had both stats (for main-hand and off-hand), but i was told that we are not supposed to do that. you just get the to-hit benefit of they better weapon. this is why i feel the orb is might is by far the best ranger off-hand weapon. you are effectively getting an additional to-hit bonus that no other weapon can give.

valetutto wrote:

the orb of might is listed as a "unique artifact"
Where do you see that?

Just the first line of the 2013 token guide on page 31.

Garrison wrote: I've had similar issues pop up. Yes, highly irritating. Even understanding the DMs are extremely distracted and mentally fried, it's hard not to feel miffed at these episodes.

At the very least, if something reduces or lets you avoid damage you can correct it yourself without confusing the DM and slowing things down.

For example, if you had the Ring of Improved Evasion and failed a Reflex roll, you could just take half the damage the DM told you to take without correcting them.

Granted, this won't work for something that is supposed to allow a re-check, such as Antidote for a failed Fortitude save against poison.

There were no reflex or any other saving rolls, at least in the four runs I had. I was told my Khings ring essentially has no effect

There were anti-lycanthropy Fort saves in Lycans afoot at the very least. And I believe a Reflex save vs. the pit trap. Better to buff saves and have the shirt slot open than wear Shirt of Health if you're a fighter/ranger/pallie.

Bleh to not having either Silverweave Shirt or Shirt of Shielding.

chax wrote: There were no reflex or any other saving rolls, at least in the four runs I had. I was told my Khings ring essentially has no effect

Ah, I see. Usually each adventure has one of each type of saving throw - Fortitude, Reflex, Will. This year however, only the Fortitude for resisting lycanthropy was obvious to me. Perhaps some monsters were supposed to allow a Relex save versus a magical effect? Such as lightening from the Genie or Automaton in Golembane?

I guess we will not know for certain until the adventure modules are released in a month or two. I would be extremely surprised if there was no need of a Relfex save in either adventure. But that is not out of the realm of possibility. Many tokens this year had no real effect.

But Khing's ring is still a solid token. Many consider Reflex the most important saving throw, and a Legendary token is a big investment that should provide great benefit from year, to year, to year, to year, etc.

valetutto wrote: the orb of might is listed as a "unique artifact"

Druegar wrote: Where do you see that?

valetutto wrote: Just the first line of the 2013 token guide on page 31.

Thank you.

Druegar wrote: I would be frustrated too, DantesGame.

If you wouldn't mind, and so we can better educate our DMs and coaches in the future, would you mind giving specific examples of the inconsistencies you encountered?

Golembane Coach (guy who helps you prep your character): "This will give you an extra treasure pull (Silver Blessing Charm). Hang on to it and I'll mark it on the party sheet."

Lycans Afoot Coach: "No, this is just a treasure item. It's not a blessing charm." (despite the token specifically saying "Silver Blessing Charm")

Golembane Coach to my son: "Wait--you can wear the leather cuirass as a shirt and then wear the Robe of the Vale over it. That will increase your AC."

Lycans Afoot Coach: "No, you can wear one or the other. See the spot where it says Armor *or* Robe?" (this one I can kind of see but both make sense)

Lycans Afoot room DM: "You take 4 points of shock damage."
Me: "I have this Ioun Stone Copper Cube that reduces that by 1."
Lycans Afoot room DM: "You take FOUR points of shock damage."
Me: "But this says it reduces shock damage by 1..."
Lycans Afoot room DM: "YOU TAKE 4 POINTS OF SHOCK DAMAGE!"

I had also asked the Lycans Afoot DM in the last room about whether or not another player got any kind of saving throw to avoid being "sucked into a portal" and being instantly dead but the guy said, "No, there aren't any saving throws in True Dungeon" yet another DM said there were.

Don't get me wrong--my son and I had an absolute blast. The sets this year were by far the best I've seen and I go back to TD 2005. It was fun being able to bring him with me through both runs and maybe I'm just getting cranky in my old age but the instant death thing and the absolute "No, you can't do that" were the sore points (if that makes sense).

DantesGame wrote: "This will give you an extra treasure pull (Silver Blessing Charm). Hang on to it and I'll mark it on the party sheet."

This coach was incorrect. The Silver Blessing Charm has no in-game effect. Perhaps the coach was confused and thought it was a Charm of Good Fortune.

DantesGame wrote: Golembane Coach to my son: "Wait--you can wear the leather cuirass as a shirt and then wear the Robe of the Vale over it. That will increase your AC."

Also incorrect, although an understandable misunderstanding I've made before.

DantesGame wrote: Lycans Afoot room DM: "YOU TAKE 4 POINTS OF SHOCK DAMAGE!"

If this was "push" damage because the room challenge was failed (or you ran out of time), then nothing could reduce it. But then, the DM should have explained that instead of arguing. If it was damage caused by a wrong guess to puzzle or something, then this definitely needs clarification as to whether or not it can be reduced. (My gut says it can be, but that it is one of those tricky to remember details that could use some hammering in during DM training.)

DantesGame wrote: ...the guy said, "No, there aren't any saving throws in True Dungeon"...

Wrong, of course. There just may have not been a save allowed in that particular instance. (All bets are off in regards to "fairness" once you reach the final room.)

I suspect that pretty much all of these points are due to the simple fact that no DM can know everything. Some volunteers might not have even played a pen-and-paper RPG before. And I feel most of their training is focused on the specific room they are running (so I'm not too surprised that one DM thought there were no saves anywhere in the game, if he was not instructed to allow them for his encounter).

Training of the DMs is tweaked constantly, and I'm sure your experiences and feedback here will be helpful for that. But the best solution may be for us to do all we can to encourage repeat volunteering, so that on average the experience of the DMs we meet is higher.

Well, as I mentioned, the overall experience was fantastic. I think a large part of my frustration is having just gotten my son into D&D (took him back to the original Red Box set to recapture that experience) and revisiting the game at its basic core where there are plenty of opportunities to avoid death and damage.

One thing I know for sure: We'll be back soon enough and will have some new tokens to put to use! (Death's Door no more...) ;-}~

Thank you DantesGame. Let me assure you this will be covered in training next year!

DantesGame wrote: Lycans Afoot room DM: "You take 4 points of shock damage."
Me: "I have this Ioun Stone Copper Cube that reduces that by 1."
Lycans Afoot room DM: "You take FOUR points of shock damage."
Me: "But this says it reduces shock damage by 1..."
Lycans Afoot room DM: "YOU TAKE 4 POINTS OF SHOCK DAMAGE!"

in this situation, unless this is push damage (ie. time ran out), just mark yourself down THREE points of damage. you are in charge of your own hit-points, and it isnt cheating if you are just following the rules of your item.

more often, i will run into a DM only saying the damage, so i ask what kind of damage. if it has a type that any of my items reduce, i quickly mention it to the DM (so they are aware that i am not taking full damage from the attack), and then move on. if there is a special circumstance that prevents an item from working on that damage, the DM needs to explain that.