TOPIC: True Dungeon Basic (or True Dungeon 101)

We've had talk about adding a new dungeon to support the "high end" players. Seeing the comments of another player's experience as a new player, I think that perhaps a bigger issue may be support at the lower end.

This has been mentioned in a couple of other threads, but I think it merits it's own thread to make the case for/against it and to discuss it.

The Proposal:
-Add a 4 room "beginner" dungeon to True Dungeon.
-Rooms would use recyceled puzzles and combats from previous years to keep costs and development time to a minimum.
-Instead of token packs, premade "Class packs" would be provided using recycled tokens, and reducing time needed for players to learn what tokens do or how to set up a character. (Character sheets would even be prefilled, reducing that part of the coaching room.)
-Extended time could be allowed in the practice room. (Perhaps by having 2 training rooms for 1 dungeon, it would double the ammount of time these new players could practice, making up for the coaching room time and token sorting needed.)
-Runs could be set up for generic tickets only, but I believe allowing prereg is still desirable.
-Optional: Since the time in dungeon, and token cost is less, price point could be more in the $20-$25 range
-No experience for runs, and no treasure tokens needed for pulls, to keep end of runs simple and not resource intensive.
-Allows focusing higher touch coaching of new players where we know it will be needed.

Pros:
-Lower cost of entry bringing in new players
-Reuses old props/plots/puzzles keeping cost down
-Smaller dungeon keeps square footage down
-Allows extra training time for new players.
-Not as many volunteers require as for a full dungeon.
-Gives a use for old tokens that are now "obsolete"
-Allows a dungeon to be tailored to new players with limited tokens and TD experience while not impacting veteran players
-Should bring in more new blood than the current system, without taking away immediate runs from current players

Cons:
-Even a smaller dungeon competes for the limited square footage in the hall
-Even a smaller dungeon still competes for the limited volunteer pool to support it
-Creating "class packs" requires time from offseason volunteers
-If this brings in an influx of players, it creates more competition for dungeon run slots in future years

I feel like this is a good suggestion, and helps the game long-term, as it gets more people interested. However, if the game can only do one thing (due to space constraints), between being more new player friendly or being more token buyer friendly, I think you need to be more token buyer friendly. The reason is because new players buy 1 or 2 runs their first year, and if they decide they like it, they buy more runs next year, but they won't be buying $8000 worth of tokens in year 2. Meanwhile, there are very few, if any, unsold TD slots. TD needs more tokens bought, not more interest in going on dungeon runs.

As a sort of "middle way", would it be cost effective to have a small booth in the Dealer hall or some other, cheaper space, where new, interested players could have a well-lit area to demo the game, fighting a monster and maybe even doing a puzzle? It just seems like all you need to get new people interested is let them pick a class, let them fight a monster, and let them try a puzzle. I don't know that we need 4 decorated rooms complete with DMs and NPCs, to be honest. We're just trying to whet their appetite, right?

A few years ago there was indeed a very basic dungeon for new players. I'm blanking on the name (still pretty brain-deal from last week) but I believe it was four rooms and you were only allowed to use one random (Common) weapon token which was drawn just before entering. We might have all been rogues too, but I'm not certain. It was a great introduction to how TD combat and puzzles work.

I seem to recall it was sold out and from my recollection, it was successful. However, this was before I was a volunteer, so I don't know how it impacted the other events or what the cost/benefit analysis turned out to be.

Are we talking about getting people interested or those that have already bought tickets and don't know what they are in for?

If it is getting people interested. I just like the idea of a slider table with a dart board instead of a monster. 1 volunteer to keep people moving along after 3 or 4 slides and to keep an eye on the pucks. Jeff you even make it a tournment game. Spin 1 treasure pull get a combined slide score over X and win a prize. If people want more carnival type games. Or just a leader board of the best 3 sliders of the day. Space required would be enough room for the board and for people to line up.

You could even have competions with two folks competing on the same board knocking each other out. Maybe like a king of the hill type thing. Sorry got distracted.

I think Seth is right though. Getting new people interested in the game doesn't seem to be an issue. Tickets sell out. Jeff has said there will unlikely be more tickets next year which was unfortunate for volunteers. Anyways I got distracted from my original point so I apologize.

Druegar,
It was the "True Dungeon Mini-Quest GenCon 2009". Four rooms, four players, everyone was a thug (a new made up class just for that event). All had daggers. It even gave XP if you were below a certain level of experience.

First room was a lock puzzle, second room a physical challenge (avoiding a sensor), third room another physical challenge (avoiding string), final room combat.

I believe a group volunteer from Kentucky ran it. I worked a couple of shifts as coach.

Druegar, I think there was another version of the "basic" dungeon at True Realm.

I think something to support newbies would be very helpful. I don't know if it needs to be a complete mini-dungeon, but more teaching and games in the storyscape would be a good thing. It would require a few more volunteers, but I think it was something missing from True Dungeon 2013.

I liked the True Craft events in 2012 and was sad that they were not used again in 2013. The storyscape had it's problems in 2012, but it seemed to just disappear in 2013. The only thing I remember seeing was one game: disarm the wizard.

I wish we could get the tavern back or at least "barfight".

Barfight was the only PVP we ever had in TD (except for one gold ticket year). It was two players in limited gear going against each other in a sliding contest. I lost in the finals the first year (2006) to "First Gladiator" who I haven't seen on the forums for a while. We ran it again in 2007 and might have also done it in 2008.

I feel you never know who the next big token buyer will be. If they can't get involved with the game due to everything being sold out, they find somewhere else to spend their money. The idea behind a newby dungeon is to allow players to try the game (and get hooked) at a lower cost of entry. Sliding against a dartboard isn't going to give the same experience. So the idea was that something like this would be very low cost to put on, would generate revenue, and would help to find that next set of players who will continue to keep the game healthy by investing in it. I'm sure there is some level of attrition on the most involved players, even if that's low attrition. Getting new players in helps to find replacements (or simply additional big spenders.)

I have been working on a separate post on how to salvage the adventurers guild into something more useful. It's interesting to hear that some of the things I wanted to suggest for that have been done in the past as well. The dart board is somethign I really think the game needs, as it can be used for a number of things, and doesn't take much space.

These threads also have me wondering how planned out the layout is. I'm sure a lot of planning does go into it, but I definately could see some wasted space as well. My experience is on the haunted house side of things (which has a lot of similar design challenges) and there is definitely a science to making every square foot count.

Something that occurs to me is that some big-token buyers must fund at least part of their purchases by reselling a portion, or even a majority, of what they get. (I know I do.) And they sell their wares to players who don't spend as much. Why would an onyx buyer purchase ANYTHING current from another one?

So if we encourage larger and larger buys, and convert small buyers into medium buyers, and medium buyers into big ones, then to whom are these people going to sell? Or are they going to decrease their orders? So to what extend would we increase token sales as opposed to just shifting them around?

So as much as we need to encourage the big guys, we need to encourage the little guys, too. I've often heard it said that TD would suffer if not for the support of big buyers, but big buyers suffer without the support of newbies and other players early in their TD career.

I guess what I'm saying is I'd love to see the high-flying planar gate retro dungeon for the big spenders. But if the choice is between bring in more newbies or stay with what we have, I think the big fish and TD itself may be better served by focusing on the other end of the spectrum.

I don't know the answer. I do know economics is very complicated and subject to the Law of Unintended Consequences.

I don't know if the statement about large buyers must fund by reselling is true. I know laz and smakdown do sell tokens but I think that has more to do with having tokens they don't need then trying to make money. Of course I don't know and we would need them to answer. I am not a big buyer but not a small either (4k each of the last 2 years from TD and I have no idea how much from others). Though I have sold a token here or there when outfitting a party of 10 (12 really because I never know what someone wants to play) there often aren't a lot of tokens left over to be sold from my purchases.

@Robert. I think you missed what I said though about that currently we don't need more new players. I know that statement seems ridiculous. But the fact is that TD sold out again. And there were still people that wanted to play that couldn't. I understand that having more people interested in TD is a good thing. Currently though 800 runs is the most that TD can support with the space and volunteers we have. I do believe that at some point that will go up, but until then I would rather TD focus on the ticket holders of those 8k tickets than potential ticket holders.
It is not as easy as saying we will stick another dungeon here. To add a dungeon for new people would take a dungeon away from others basically is what I am saying. Again I am not saying screw all new people. Just that there doesn't seem to be a need to draw new people any. They are already coming.

I admit that I say this all partially for very selfish reasons. I started playing only 4 years ago with 1 run and 7 friends, and $100 in tokens at GenCon. Year 2 saw a $250 token purchase pre-GC and 2 runs with 18 friends. Last year it was 3 runs and 4k in tokens. This year it was 4 complete runs (and 5 other lone runs with others) and another 4k in tokens. I am just getting enough space for me to fill out now I don't want to fight anyone else for it...lol.