TOPIC: AoW & Eldritch Runestone for 2013 True Grind

Incognito wrote: Another reason why I like the proposed AoW & Eldritch Runestone effects, is that they allow creative token setups by players.

As a fellow tokenholic, I like effects which allow players to creatively use tokens and/or which breathe new life into neglected tokens.

The AoW may convince players to give blunder weapons (which they might normally ignore) a try.

And the Eldritch Runestone lets players try new token builds and combinations which they normally can't use. In addition, obsoleted tokens (like the Tower Shield +1) suddenly become useful again. Plus, it lets Monks/Rangers try something different with their weapon choices.

I think that maybe the problem isn't power level. the eldritch effect is flat-out the most interesting of the three. it offers something to ANY player who uses it, gives them lots of options (even if they aren't uber-powerful), and is flavor-wise just plain neat.

the AoW doesn't live up to the 'cool effect', in my opinion. it is completely mechanical, and also requires another token to be useful...and worse than the eldritch power, requires one of a very few tokens to do ANYTHING AT ALL! even when it does something, it often wont be as powerful as other options. so, give up neck slot to use a different weapon that isn't any better?

the special effect is all power/mechanical. it doesn't have the flare that previous special powers have had. using a special, as far as I know, has always given either great entertainment/experience or a chance at an uber-rare token. using it has always been truly special.

also, I hope jeff never agrees with you that the eldritch runestone should be more powerful than the AoW. and if he does, everyone should be using eldritch runestones in the dungeon since it has to top the HoP effect.

Honestly its a little predictable but I'm really surprised there isn't a fight as a werewolf effect mixed in there somewhere.

EN 429 wrote: In Grind, a single monster lasts 2-4 combat rounds in my experience. So for a single UR I can deal 150 damage (ave guesstimate on this).
Now, For the Eldritch I do use your basic suggestion and add +1 to hit and +3 to damage. I am going to attack for 35 or 40 combat rounds. So the damage output is fairly equivalent plus a hit bonus.

Maybe my assumptions are incorrect and based on faulty logic but I think the benefit of a UR versus a $15-20 transmuted should be significantly better. Perhaps it is just the Eldritch that is overpowered rather than the special being underpowered.

Also, I didn't see in the tix purchase that we should email you. Let me know if you want my group to do this.

I didn't see the email bit either but I could have easily over looked it.

I'm not here to debate your logic but I just wanted to point out that this is essentially a debate between DD(direct damage) and DOT(Damage over Time) and your saying the DOT is better because its potential over all effect is much better. This assumes a protracted length of time which may or may not be the case. Also it assumes every "tick" of the DOT will land for full effect. What happens when you miss? The DD special has no miss and you're assured to do its full value.


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Is this special power special?
Well I think its pretty darn neat to point at a monster and wave goodbye on any difficulty level.
Time in combat is always super valueable and this, if played correctly, could save a lot. A way to make it more special? well... maybe death comes in to "slay" it for you. Or maybe just a Dalak pop's in and Exterminates the monster for you. I think that would be pretty special.

On that thought, since we go to true grind to fight and don't always care about wining what we fight since its more about the challenge what about making the special a "you call it" fight. Always wanted to fight a specific monster to 'get revenge' or whatever? Email required ahead of time because there would be no other way but that would be special indeed.

I think the debate about how powerful should a disposable token be is a tricky one. The question is if you want folks to use them or not and how hard were they to make.

For a True Grind where you only have 1hr and you don't get tokens, its hard to cost justify the use of a disposable unless its a fairly powerful effect.

I don't see that the runestone must always be inferior to the AoW but they both should be decent enough effects that its worth the cost. I personally can see that a one-use-rare+ might on occasion >= purp power. But that this really all be saved for a side debate.

EN 429 wrote: In Grind, a single monster lasts 2-4 combat rounds in my experience. So for a single UR I can deal 150 damage (ave guesstimate on this).
Now, For the Eldritch I do use your basic suggestion and add +1 to hit and +3 to damage. I am going to attack for 35 or 40 combat rounds. So the damage output is fairly equivalent plus a hit bonus.

Maybe my assumptions are incorrect and based on faulty logic but I think the benefit of a UR versus a $15-20 transmuted should be significantly better. Perhaps it is just the Eldritch that is overpowered rather than the special being underpowered.

jedibcg wrote: In the hour that is Grind? I am not certain how you are going to get in 40 rounds of combat or even 30. Maybe that is correct just seems a lot to me. I have only done 1 TG and didn't keep track how many rounds of combat it was.

Yeah, considering you have only 60 minutes, I think 35 or 40 attacks is rather optimistic, given time constraints. The only times when you can get lots and lots of attacks is if everyone is missing a lot, or if you are the only one left!

The calculations for damage output is also heavily reliant on the assumption that you are always hitting the monster. Depending on the difficulty level (Hardcore and especially Nightmare), I don't think that is necessarily a safe assumption.

Finally, damage distribution throughout the event is not all equal. 150 damage spread equally throughout every round is not equal to 150 damage at a critical point, since some monsters are harder than others.

Xavon wrote: I don't really think the Eldritch Runestone should be weaker than the Special?. Special? might be rarer, but a least part of that is because it is older. And Eldritch Runestone is a Rare+, which means it should be a little weaker than a UR like Special?. But Eldritch Runestone also takes up a slot, while Special? is slotless, so that should more or less make up the difference.

Thanks for pointing out that the Eldritch Runestone does take up a lot (the Runestone slot).

If you aren't using the Eldritch Runestone, you are likely using a normal runestone for +1 damage.

A typical UR is worth maybe 4000+ GP. Consumable UR's are worth less, but probably still in the 2000 - 3000 range. In contrast, the Eldritch Runestone is probably around 500 - 700 GP, so in terms of "value", I would estimate that a Special is probably worth at least 3 or 4 Eldritch Runestones. That is my guess. I am interested in what other traders think in terms of relative valuation.

kurtreznor wrote: I think that maybe the problem isn't power level. the eldritch effect is flat-out the most interesting of the three. it offers something to ANY player who uses it, gives them lots of options (even if they aren't uber-powerful), and is flavor-wise just plain neat.

the AoW doesn't live up to the 'cool effect', in my opinion. it is completely mechanical, and also requires another token to be useful...and worse than the eldritch power, requires one of a very few tokens to do ANYTHING AT ALL! even when it does something, it often wont be as powerful as other options. so, give up neck slot to use a different weapon that isn't any better?

Kent, did you think last year's Dwarven AoW effect was good?

Last year you did get a small static bonus (+2 to saves, +4 to HP) but the weapon use ability was far more limited.

In any case, last year's AoW and Eldritch effects also seemed entirely "mechanical." And for 2009, 2010, and 2011, other than the novelty of rolling a die for an effect, the AoW was also purely mechanical (typically providing a limited saving throw or HP bonus).

the special effect is all power/mechanical. it doesn't have the flare that previous special powers have had. using a special, as far as I know, has always given either great entertainment/experience or a chance at an uber-rare token. using it has always been truly special.

Realistically, I don't expect anyone to ever use a UR Special for Grind. Especially since last year's 50/50 chance for a Mithral Coin of Fate really raised the bar.

And note that last year I actually had a very unique entertainment/experience effect for the Special, but no one seemed interested in it!

Unfortunately, Grind is just a side event and for the UR Special, it just doesn't have the resources to go with as unique effects as the main dungeon can....

also, I hope jeff never agrees with you that the eldritch runestone should be more powerful than the AoW. and if he does, everyone should be using eldritch runestones in the dungeon since it has to top the HoP effect.

Treasure generating effects are powerful, but the main strength comes from the reusability.

Suppose the Eldritch Runestone gave the HoP effect. I don't know if it would actually be worth it. Do you? The Runestone costs about 600-700 GP to make, and you'd be getting an extra 6 treasure pulls (max), assuming you got all the stamps.

Is a treasure pull worth 100 GP? It's hard to say. You get a tiny chance for a UR, and some of the monster trophies can be valuable (though last year's 2012 trophies are worth very very little). But almost all the uncommons and a large chunk of the Rares are probably worth *less* than that.

valetutto wrote: I'm not here to debate your logic but I just wanted to point out that this is essentially a debate between DD(direct damage) and DOT(Damage over Time) and your saying the DOT is better because its potential over all effect is much better. This assumes a protracted length of time which may or may not be the case. Also it assumes every "tick" of the DOT will land for full effect. What happens when you miss? The DD special has no miss and you're assured to do its full value.

Also, taking out a monster instantly buys you some time, to focus on the other monsters still around. So it saves your damage your party would take, saves your some time, and lets you concentrate your firepower.

As a different comparison, look at the Hourglass of Imprisonment (though most people would never use it). Gives you 3 rounds of reprieve from one monster. The main thing is that it works against the boss monster. But either way, you still have to fight the monster. In the UR Special case, it is similar but kills the monster instead of merely giving you 3 extra rounds.

Specials have been going for 7000-9000gp if you can ind them. I doubt there are more than 40 still circulating.

EN 429 wrote: Specials have been going for 7000-9000gp if you can ind them. I doubt there are more than 40 still circulating.

I have 3 of them, I dont think I would part with any for less than 12k in GPs(especially after last year)

I've got 2 and I had traded 1 after Gencon for 9000gp I think.

EN 429 wrote: Specials have been going for 7000-9000gp if you can ind them. I doubt there are more than 40 still circulating.

Wow! That is very interesting.

Especially since when Specials first came out, most people weren't interested in getting them at all!

Even when they allowed the "any year PYP" a few years back, I can't recall many people choosing the Special....

Incognito wrote:

EN 429 wrote: Specials have been going for 7000-9000gp if you can ind them. I doubt there are more than 40 still circulating.

Wow! That is very interesting.

Especially since when Specials first came out, most people weren't interested in getting them at all!

Even when they allowed the "any year PYP" a few years back, I can't recall many people choosing the Special....

I did, I got a bunch then, now down to 3. I used 7 last year on the flip (got 5 good flips and 2 bad ones)

valetutto wrote: I didn't see the email bit either but I could have easily over looked it.

I saw the instructions to send an email, but never got a response when I did.

So were the effects listed here the final choices?