TOPIC: AoW & Eldritch Runestone for 2013 True Grind

the AoW ability sucks. the only reason last years AoW effect was ok was the +HP and +saves part, the dwarven thing was fun but all flavor to me. doing a blunder weapon fix as a special ability seems like a cop-out. if the backfire symbols at least negated the miss (ie. backfire could still be a hit for some amount of damage), I would at least have to admit that it was a decent ability...however, I still wouldn't use it because I don't want to be stuck with a +2 blunder cannon after this year when I no longer have that ability.

for the eldritch runestone: holy crap, if I knew it was going to be considered more powerful than the AoW I would have made as many as possible. really, I am starting to feel that the eldritch runestone was so downplayed to keep expectations low, leading to fewer being made than we could have, leading to higher cost to replace, leading to the game placing better powers to compensate people for spending a valuable token. seems a crappy situation to me. I thought it was clear that eldritch runestones would not be uber powerful and that it would be an interesting MINOR effect.

honestly, had you just mentioned these two abilities as your ideas without pairing them to the item, I would have thought them the other way around: AoW granting the extra arm and eldritch runestone helping blunder weapons. maybe that is my skewed opinion against blunder weapons, but the extra arm really does seem like a hand of glory plus other options, thus special neck slot item.

I always thought the eldritch runestone was the special replacement, and so expected them to have an awesomely fun series of abilities over time

jedibcg wrote: Yeah I was just speaking of myself I think it is an interesting idea just one I will not be using. +2 Flaming shortbow is close to damage (7.3 I think) and usable by rogue and bard. I would hope the Wizards won't be sliding too much (they are wizards after all). Would be interesting to find out how many take advantage of the AoW though.

The +2 Flaming Short Bow does good damage (as long as the monster is vulnerable to fire) and the +1 Mighty Short Bow can do a large amount of damage with the right build. But both of those are old tokens (from 2007 and 2010) that many players (especially newer ones) won't have access to. In contrast, the blunder weapons are all 2013 (as is the AoW reprint) so those tokens are immediately accessible.

Druegar wrote:

This seems perfectly reasonable to me.

This seems a tiny bit overpowered, but still a fun effect.

I totally get why you want to compensate the classes who can already use blunder guns, and I like the effect, but this seems like it would be a challenge for the DMs to track. Are you sure you want to add and ther plate for the DMs to keep spinning?

Hopefully the keen effect shouldn't be too hard. Not that much different than if players are constantly using Scrolls of Keen Edge or Oils of Smiting. If someone hits with a 19, you simply:

1. Check if it's a blunder weapon. If so,
2. Check if it is Barbarian/Fighters/Paladin/Ranger. If so,
3. Check if using AoW

If *any* of those is not true, then you just ignore it. So most of the time it won't apply. And if you accidentally forget to factor it in, as The Broasted mentioned, the player will probably correct you.

WOW! That's über-powerful! I think that might be okay for a UR Special because those are super scarce, but it's overboard for an Eldritch Runestone.

Regardless of what token it comes from, that's going to be a complicated PITA when it comes to filling out the party card. I would strongly caution you to think long and hard about the ramifications of this before implementing this concept.

While it sounds strong, practically speaking it's actually not that amazing (in terms of game mechanics).

For a red player, you can wear an extra Ring of Protection +1 or saving throw ring (+4 to one). And then use a Brawler's Mug (+2 damage) or shield (+2 or 3 AC).

For a purple player, you can wear an extra RoP +2 and an Orb of Might (+1 hit/damage, maybe up to +3 damage with the Might set) or shield (+3 or +4 AC).

But a major difference is that you actually need the tokens to boost you up. (In contrast, past AoW wonders simply give you a flat bonus without needing more tokens).

So a red player will be able to get +1 AC and +2 melee damage (or maybe just +4 AC), if they use the Eldritch Runestone *and* use two appropriate tokens.

A purple player can get +2 AC, and +1 hit/damage (possibly +3 damage), or maybe +6 AC total, if they use the Eldritch Runestone *and* use two appropriate UR tokens.

As a result, I feel that the power level isn't that out of line, and will hopefully be easier to factor in on the party card.

Fizzikx wrote: Have the Eldritch Runestone effects been listed for this year yet or are they still a mystery?

I do not recall seeing them yet.

valetutto wrote: My only concern currently is the "speil" are you going to print this up on some laminated card to sit on the gear up table? Might lose the voice going over it all when it could just be handed out and read as needed.

These things arn't super common, they are all constructed and URs after all.

They will be posted on the forum and I plan to have a printout at the setup table.

For Grind participants who e-mailed me (ticket buyers are told to contact me, but most haven't), I will let them know via e-mail.

I will try to see if I can send a mass e-mail to Grind ticket buyers. If not, maybe Jeff can include the details as part of the announcements.

Since these effects require an AoW or costly Eldritch Runestone, my expectation is that there won't be too many "random" people using them. (Though Henwy thinks that nowadays there are more and more people in that category who aren't forumites).

The Broasted wrote: I kind of like the idea of the Eldritch Runestone increasing an inherent class power of the user. This could be bit of a pain during the coaching. But, I can print a quick reference card for me and Raven to use.

I like the ideas, but as Lazlo noted, it adds an additional layer of complexity which might not be the best choice right now. Maybe we can revisit this in the future.

Xavon wrote: As a poor, overlooked Monk, I love the ideal of the extra Hand slot. Yes it is powerful, but the Runestone is still a consumable, and it does take the Runestone slot.

Yes, the intention is to give the underpowered Monk a little bit of love!

Xavon wrote: I don't really think any of the proposed Blunder weapon abilities on their own are worth the neck slot.

How's about we combined 1 with a weakened version of 2:

Any Class can use any Blunder Weapon. If you are using a Blunder weapon your class can already use, Misfire damage is negated (but it is still an automatic miss).

Zankas wrote: I am pretty sure the plan was to implement all three of the abilities, not just one of them, so everybody can use all blunder guns, nobody takes misfire damage, and some classes get the extra crit range.

Yes, Zankas is correct. All three of the abilities apply.

Any class who uses the AoW is immune to misfire/bomb damage from blunder weapons.

Then the Barbarian/Fighters/Paladin/Rangers (who can use all blunder weapons) get the keen ability, while the other classes are able to use all the blunder weapons.

kurtreznor wrote: the AoW ability sucks. the only reason last years AoW effect was ok was the +HP and +saves part, the dwarven thing was fun but all flavor to me. doing a blunder weapon fix as a special ability seems like a cop-out. if the backfire symbols at least negated the miss (ie. backfire could still be a hit for some amount of damage), I would at least have to admit that it was a decent ability...however, I still wouldn't use it because I don't want to be stuck with a +2 blunder cannon after this year when I no longer have that ability.

Thanks for the feedback.

Maybe I just underestimate +X HP, but last year I didn't think +4 HP as all that great. +2 to saves is nice. As for the Dwarven weapon option, you had the +1 Dwarven Battle Axe (6 average damage) which is decent for the Wizard/Bard/Rogue/Druid, but only slightly helpful to the Cleric. And the ideal +2 Dwarven Dire Axe (7.2 average damage) which is great for all of them, plus the Ranger. Of course the Barbarian, Fighters, and Paladins got absolutely nothing out of this since they could already use all the Dwarven weapons.

If we look at the Blunder weapons, the Double Barrel Blunder Cannon does a nice 6.67 average damage while the +2 Boom Stick deals 7.875 average damage. Quite a bump especially for the Wizard, Bard, and Rogue.

If a lot of people think it's too weak, I'm not opposed to adding a small static bonus. But with 3 abilities already, my concern is making it too complicated.

Also, I don't expect people to go out and buy a +2 Boom Stick just to use it. But a fair number of people have a +2 Boom Stick and don't plan on using it in the near future, so this might be an occasion for them to actually give it a try. (And you can see how many bombs you slide, and extrapolate how it would work in a normal combat).

for the eldritch runestone: holy crap, if I knew it was going to be considered more powerful than the AoW I would have made as many as possible. really, I am starting to feel that the eldritch runestone was so downplayed to keep expectations low, leading to fewer being made than we could have, leading to higher cost to replace, leading to the game placing better powers to compensate people for spending a valuable token. seems a crappy situation to me. I thought it was clear that eldritch runestones would not be uber powerful and that it would be an interesting MINOR effect.

Well, the AoW is a permanent item (though a UR).

The Eldritch Runestone is a costly consumable that costs more than 500 GP to make (250 GP Eldritch Dust, another 250 GP or a monster trophy, a useful Sun Runestone and then a pair of minor uncommons).

I thought that last year's effect (immune to Dark STAIN) was quite weak. But the thing about Eldritch Runestones is that if it's too weak, then no one's going to bother using it (at 500+ GP a pop).

As mentioned earlier, the most likely effect with the Eldritch Runestone is that you can maybe an extra +2 AC and +2 to damage - provided you have two additional tokens to use.

honestly, had you just mentioned these two abilities as your ideas without pairing them to the item, I would have thought them the other way around: AoW granting the extra arm and eldritch runestone helping blunder weapons. maybe that is my skewed opinion against blunder weapons, but the extra arm really does seem like a hand of glory plus other options, thus special neck slot item.

I did intend to give the Eldritch Runestone the stronger effect since it is a one-use consumable.

Also, here is my current idea for the Ultra Rare Special ? token:

Finger of Death: Once this Grind, the user may automatically defeat any one non-boss monster

This bypasses immunities and special defenses that monsters may have. (Spell Resistance doesn't apply. Works against monsters normally immune to death effects.)

If there are ambiguous situations (one of the monsters is an illusion or a decoy, like the Gas Spore), the DM will apply the effect to your advantage. (We won't screw you over).

It won't work on the boss monster(s), but if the Grind is nearing the boss monster and you still haven't use the effect yet, the DM will mention that the window of opportunity for using it is closing. (So you don't have to worry about it going to waste).

Thoughts?

Incognito wrote: the keen effect shouldn't be too hard.

This is my OCD speaking:
When expanding the crit range of a blunt weapon, the effect is called "smiting". Only piercing or slashing weapons can be "keen".

Carry on then.

Incognito wrote: Ultra Rare Special ?:
Finger of Death: Once this Grind, the user may automatically defeat any one non-boss monster

My initial thought was "damn that's powerful!" and it is, but I think it's reasonable for a UR Special.

I like this, for the Special


I am still unconvinced about the Eldritch Runestone "third hand" effect, tho. I think it is more effort to sort out than the class-specific benefit list proposed by TheBroasted which you are disinclined to use

Another reason why I like the proposed AoW & Eldritch Runestone effects, is that they allow creative token setups by players.

As a fellow tokenholic, I like effects which allow players to creatively use tokens and/or which breathe new life into neglected tokens.

The AoW may convince players to give blunder weapons (which they might normally ignore) a try.

And the Eldritch Runestone lets players try new token builds and combinations which they normally can't use. In addition, obsoleted tokens (like the Tower Shield +1) suddenly become useful again. Plus, it lets Monks/Rangers try something different with their weapon choices.

The Eldritch still seems more powerful than the Special effect. Specials are much rarer and mor valuable and the commensurate power should represent this.

EN 429 wrote: The Eldritch still seems more powerful than the Special effect. Specials are much rarer and mor valuable and the commensurate power should represent this.

Why do you think the Eldritch effect is stronger? (I am genuinely interested in your thought process).

I agree that the Special is rare and the effect should be stronger, so I was hoping that my proposed effect was better than the Eldritch effect (which in turn should be better than the AoW effect)

From my perspective, the Eldritch effect will give you a few bonuses to AC and/or hit/damage, *if* combined with other tokens.

The damage and more importantly time saved by instantly defeating a monster is a larger payoff IMHO. But I'd be interested to hear if you disagree about that.

In Grind, a single monster lasts 2-4 combat rounds in my experience. So for a single UR I can deal 150 damage (ave guesstimate on this).
Now, For the Eldritch I do use your basic suggestion and add +1 to hit and +3 to damage. I am going to attack for 35 or 40 combat rounds. So the damage output is fairly equivalent plus a hit bonus.

Maybe my assumptions are incorrect and based on faulty logic but I think the benefit of a UR versus a $15-20 transmuted should be significantly better. Perhaps it is just the Eldritch that is overpowered rather than the special being underpowered.

Also, I didn't see in the tix purchase that we should email you. Let me know if you want my group to do this.

In the hour that is Grind? I am not certain how you are going to get in 40 rounds of combat or even 30. Maybe that is correct just seems a lot to me. I have only done 1 TG and didn't keep track how many rounds of combat it was.

I don't really think the Eldritch Runestone should be weaker than the Special?. Special? might be rarer, but a least part of that is because it is older. And Eldritch Runestone is a Rare+, which means it should be a little weaker than a UR like Special?. But Eldritch Runestone also takes up a slot, while Special? is slotless, so that should more or less make up the difference.