TOPIC: Token Judgement Calls in 2013 (SRoEC, etc)

I agree with you in principal. One of my fav spells in tabletop was Unseen Servant because there are so many things you can do with if you're clever.

Mike Steele wrote:

Raywind wrote: I still remember the room from a couple of years ago with the poisoned drinks that your Medallion of Greyhawk didn't protect you against...

I think our Medallions of Greyhawk did protect us from that damage.

We were told specifically (before anyone asked) that the Medallion didn't work in that room. I don't think anyone in our group was wearing one, but I could see how it could have been aggravating.

I know you can't plan for every contingency, but I feel that the tokens should work as originally intended in most cases. If you're immune to poison, you should be immune to the poison in the room. If you're immune to fire (or have greatly reduced damage, etc.) you shouldn't be damaged by the fire. Hand waving and saying that it's "special" poison pretty much defeats the purpose of having specialized tokens in the first place.

I agree that, ideally, the puzzles could avoid these types of designs in the first place. Interactive puzzles that immerse and involve the entire group (such as the hammer puzzle, or the jellyfish puzzle) are fantastic. If, however, someone figures out a shortcut--I think it should be allowed.

SageSTL wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Raywind wrote: I still remember the room from a couple of years ago with the poisoned drinks that your Medallion of Greyhawk didn't protect you against...

I think our Medallions of Greyhawk did protect us from that damage.

We were told specifically (before anyone asked) that the Medallion didn't work in that room. I don't think anyone in our group was wearing one, but I could see how it could have been aggravating.

I know you can't plan for every contingency, but I feel that the tokens should work as originally intended in most cases. If you're immune to poison, you should be immune to the poison in the room. If you're immune to fire (or have greatly reduced damage, etc.) you shouldn't be damaged by the fire. Hand waving and saying that it's "special" poison pretty much defeats the purpose of having specialized tokens in the first place.

I agree that, ideally, the puzzles could avoid these types of designs in the first place. Interactive puzzles that immerse and involve the entire group (such as the hammer puzzle, or the jellyfish puzzle) are fantastic. If, however, someone figures out a shortcut--I think it should be allowed.

Hopefully we can avoid making any tokens like that from now on, that easily short-circuit puzzles. And I think some older ones have essentially been obsoleted. For instance, I just pretty much assume now that Scroll of Mage Hands and Knock won't be allowed to be used, as they pretty easily defeat a lot of puzzles single-handedly (which is disappointing since I stockpiled Knock scrolls in the early days since they were so useful).

SageSTL wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Raywind wrote: I still remember the room from a couple of years ago with the poisoned drinks that your Medallion of Greyhawk didn't protect you against...

I think our Medallions of Greyhawk did protect us from that damage.

We were told specifically (before anyone asked) that the Medallion didn't work in that room. I don't think anyone in our group was wearing one, but I could see how it could have been aggravating.

I know you can't plan for every contingency, but I feel that the tokens should work as originally intended in most cases. If you're immune to poison, you should be immune to the poison in the room. If you're immune to fire (or have greatly reduced damage, etc.) you shouldn't be damaged by the fire. Hand waving and saying that it's "special" poison pretty much defeats the purpose of having specialized tokens in the first place.

I agree that, ideally, the puzzles could avoid these types of designs in the first place. Interactive puzzles that immerse and involve the entire group (such as the hammer puzzle, or the jellyfish puzzle) are fantastic. If, however, someone figures out a shortcut--I think it should be allowed.

This inconsistancy is the thing I hate the most actually.

It works, no it doesn't.... well which is it?!?

I had an issue with darkstain last year.
It can be removed, no it can't...

Its an effect caused by an undead so it can be removed.
No its a special super thingy that just happend to occur near an undead.

The sad reality is that tokens that adjust stats are the only ones you want - there is no judgement call on your +50 to saves.

Fizzikx wrote: The sad reality is that tokens that adjust stats are the only ones you want - there is no judgement call on your +50 to saves.

I agree Fizz

commanderFuron wrote:

Fizzikx wrote: The sad reality is that tokens that adjust stats are the only ones you want - there is no judgement call on your +50 to saves.

I agree Fizz

I mostly agree too, with some great class-specific exceptions. Since I'm outfitting a party of 10, and none of them are knowledgeable about True Dungeon except showing up to play at GENCON, it's impossible for me to remember what everyone's tokens do, and to remind everyone at the right times. So when I can, I do opt for tokens that affect things on the Party Card, so I don't have to remember them

I don't think tokens should allow a player to bypass a puzzle (except in certain specific cases), but they should make it easier. And I also think creativity should be encouraged more.

Like the frequently mentioned lava puzzle. Allowing a player with Fire DR to lift a pot directly would not have broken the puzzle. You still had to pour the right pots, in the right order, in the allowed timespan. Even if one or two people could have done a pot without the bars, there is still a challenge left. Or it could have been add that you need the strength of two people (20 or higher) to lift the pot. So if you had fire DR and 20 strength, then you could lift one.

Or the broken bridge. We already had to toss the rope across the transfer the panels, so why can't we toss our self-untying, holds a 1000 pounds elvish rope across and tie it to the pedestals to make a bridge.

And, for the record, I was also informed poison immunity would not work in the liquor room.

I feel a rant coming on....deep breath....
Okay, I am going to agree with Commander Furon and Picc.
If a player has planned in advance or was just lucky enough to have the right token at the right time, it should be allowed.

The Lava room was, because of this fact, was my least favorite. That no Fire Resistant items applies just seemed wrong. As mentioned earlier, you still had to know the sequence.

So I add my voice to those that ask that when designing a room, do not cancel out the items that were obtained through luck, time or resources that could negate it. Go for the more modern DM theory - Say Yes or Roll Dice.

Seek to encourage creative token use.

I also encourage the Room DMs to try to think up these situations and have an open discussion on their super-secret DM forums. Vs. reading the module a few days in advance and "winging" it.

The liquor room was supposed to allow the MoG to work. the year before there was another poison room that did not allow it, and I bitched to high heaven about it.

It is my opinion that if a token breaks a puzzle, so be it. The player doesn't have to use that option, but can if they want too. When you pay $100+ for a token to break a room, it damn well should work as advertised. If it doesn't long term TD will lose players.

On the other hand, if it does work, the player can know that he will survive the puzzle/trap, and still work toward the solution as normal. In my experience with room breaking items, this is how it goes, almost every time

The lava room is a different horse though. Lava does not equal fire. Fire is a specific thing. It is not heat. It is fire.

darkangel866 wrote: The liquor room was supposed to allow the MoG to work. the year before there was another poison room that did not allow it, and I bitched to high heaven about it.

It is my opinion that if a token breaks a puzzle, so be it. The player doesn't have to use that option, but can if they want too. When you pay $100+ for a token to break a room, it damn well should work as advertised. If it doesn't long term TD will lose players.

On the other hand, if it does work, the player can know that he will survive the puzzle/trap, and still work toward the solution as normal. In my experience with room breaking items, this is how it goes, almost every time

The lava room is a different horse though. Lava does not equal fire. Fire is a specific thing. It is not heat. It is fire.

It was the room that started with some word anagrams, then you had to pick a plaque off the wall and we were told that all were poisoned but the correct one and the MoG would NOT save you from the poison. In the ale room we didn't the MoG but I did find out that we could have used it.

I agree with those that are siding with the sentiment that if you can come up with a creative use of a token it shouldn't be unilaterlly prevented. One of the hallmarks of my organization (NASCRAG) is when someone comes up with something totally unexpected we almost always allow it, because that is what make great stories to tell everyone later !!!!

It's pretty insulting to say that DMs are "winging it." This implies they are not doing their jobs and don't care about what they are doing. This is not the case. Most DMs take their responsibilities very carefully, and we do try to anticipate how tokens could be used to break the room. Sometimes, though, a DM is a last-minute replacement - these volunteers do their best with limited time and exposure to the information about the rooms.

I don't get the problem. I don't mind when there are situations that make the players play the room. I don't this this would be much fun:

DM: You have to find the right cask to drink from - the rest are poisoned. You must solve this puzzle!

PLAYER: I am immune to poison, so I drink from all of them and find the right one.

DM: Okay, what do we do for the next 11 1/2 minutes?

I liked the solution of the DM who said to try the puzzle, and would allow the poison immunity solution if needed at the end.