TOPIC: Token Judgement Calls in 2013 (SRoEC, etc)

Writing my previous post on Eldritch Runestones reminded me to bring this up pre-GenCon 2013;

Dear Jeff & Co;
When designing puzzles and other such rooms please allow immunity tokens to actually be used.

I know this sounds confusing - of course they are allowed to be used. However, as an example in 2012 the Draco-Lich puzzle room had a room in which hot lava was to be poured by using long wooden planks to pick up jars of lava (ping pong balls) and pour them into a cauldron in a certain order.

I had a ring of Supreme Elemental Command on me (even the Ring of Fire Elemental Command I think should have worked) and was told I could not just pick up the bowl - even though the fire damage should have been negated (to some extent if not altogether).

Side note; In game terms the dwarves must have been masochists. Dwarves, who specialize in creating things of amazing wonder and strength, decided the best implement to pour a hot bowl of lava was a two wooden plank system? Really? (Joking)


Another example of game mechanics not working as how I perceived them to work was the whisper room in Giant’s Travail (creative room I thought).

One of our party members had completed the TrueCraft challenge for the day and had received an “Earcuff of Abjuration” and when someone spoke too loudly we were told that a rock had come down and hit us all taking damage.

The player responded with, doesn’t this provide immunity? And the answer came back that it was now “Ice” instead of “rock” and therefore it didn’t work.

It was hardly worth arguing the point, he just smiled took the damage and that player adjusted it up later after the room. I still feel as though the GM was given explicit instructions that “nobody is immune no matter what” and therefore, once again, the tokens become devalued by not being able to be used.

I realize tokens like these can "break" game mechanics - but you guys allowed them to be printed so please don’t penalize us for being creative and/or using them in creative ways... I beg you.

Creating new status effects like Darkstain not only seems to be a nod to a workaround of these types of potential game breaking mechanics and it also devalues our investments in tokens.

If we continually have an arms race of status effects and immunities that are never encountered or allowed then it serves the players no good to have these tokens at all.

Just a thought for 2013 and a prayer that you will still allow creative use of our items. Thanks for reading and regardless of the above I am really looking forward to GC2013 =)

-Fizz

Well, sometimes an item that provides some kind of immunity or ability (like FLY) essentially negates the challenge of the puzzle - that's why sometimes we have to create situations like an anti-magic field, winds that prevent flying, etc.

Regarding the ear cuff, it's possible the DM didn't know about its ability. I was an adventure coordinator, and I wasn't aware of the Truecraft tokens and their abilities. DMs sometimes make decisions on the fly that we discuss later.

Just my two cents: If a player has a purple (or other token) that negates the puzzle of the room, why should you specifically create something that negates it? Shouldn't it be the same room experience for everyone? It seems to me that this kind of ad hoc gming is way more likely to create hard feelings. In fact, wasn't that the reason the "tests" were originated in the first place: so that everyone would have consistency?

The tests are meant to make sure the generic situations are handled the same. But DMs dont train on every room in the event, just the one they're working. I'm going to play and don't want to know every secret of every room.

That said, each team does discuss their specific room ahead of time, and how the various tokens and abilities work there. Last year as DM I wasn't aware of any of the True Craft tokens or how they would work, or even about Darkstain. But I was in the worm room, and didn't need to know.

The "same room experience" argument is one reason, I'm sure, that they don't want URs to negate puzzles. It doesn't seem fair to tell Barney (the purpled-out dinosaur) he can just walk through the room because he spent more money than the players who didnt. On the other hand, it seems wrong to let people invest hundreds on their equipment to find it doesn't really do anything. Maybe there should be something in the middle, let tokens modify the puzzle somehow rather than negate it. That RoSEC isn't cheap, so it should have done something - maybe let you pick up the bowl one time, and you take no damage but you inhale so many toxic fumes since the bowl is much closer to your face than it would have been, so you sit in the corner for the rest of the room retching and going all Charlie Sheen. Or something.

But it's hard to think of every possibility ahead of time, and no one wants to use any of their precious 12 minutes waiting for a director's ruling. You may find out your clever idea is allowed, but run out of time and fail anyway. It's a tough call.

Respectfully I've got to disagree with you on this one. If someone spends the money to get a supreme ring then IMO they know what their doing and should have every right to make use of it to bypass a puzzle or walk through rooms someone without said protection cant. If they bought it odds are good they know what it does and want to have that edge since thats what they paid for.

Frankly I dont see any reason (other then breaking immersion which is already rather strained when a player is told they cant use an item for whatever reason) as to why they cant use the item. In the case of something individual like attacking a flying monster then the player who paid for it gets an edge in combat. In the case of something like the supreme ring bypassing a fire to solve the puzzle for the entire group I just dont see why the GM cant just say ok the puzzle was bypassed thanks to said item you get credit for the room now would you like to try and solve it the regular way for interest sake or just hang about and chat for the rest of the room.

About the only argument I can see against this type of solution being difficult to implement is if there is no ruling ahead of time and the GM has to on the fly decide if the item will work and somehow relay that info to the GM in the same room of the other track. Though I really dont even 100% see the issue there as GMs could just as easily be instructed to accept creative solutions. i.e if a player says well it worked this way in my run an hour ago or it seems like it should work like this then let it work. So much of the game is on the honor system anyway why not take players at their word here too.

Though I don't even think we have to take it that far. There really isn't much reason there couldn't be a pre generated exception list made for all the puzzles ahead of time and left with the GM in the rooms. similar to how grabbing the egg bought an extra round with the dragon ie.

Dungeon room 1: No items applicable
Dungeon room 2: players with fire resistance items (list) may ignore fire based push damage.
Dungeon room 3: Characters with a sonic based horn of blasting may bring down a rock slide to do 10 points of damage to the monsters.
Dungeon room 4: No items applicable
Dungeon room 5: No items applicable
Dungeon room 6: Using elven rope after one group has successfully ascended the tower will allow the second group to bypass the accent puzzle. A player with a fizzy lifting pack may also carry the rope up and bypass the puzzle entirely for both groups. potions of leap attack will not work as they only function in combat. etc

note: the preceding was entirely hypothetical

I still remember the room from a couple of years ago with the poisoned drinks that your Medallion of Greyhawk didn't protect you against...

Raywind wrote: I still remember the room from a couple of years ago with the poisoned drinks that your Medallion of Greyhawk didn't protect you against...

I think our Medallions of Greyhawk did protect us from that damage.

On the whole though, I like for tokens to have minimal effect in puzzle rooms. I kind of see the puzzle rooms as the rooms where people with a ton of tokens and those with just a few tokens are on fairly even footing.

Regarding (as an example), items granting fire resistance, I have no problem with people that have items granting fire resistance taking less (or no) damage from a trap that causes fire damage, but I wouldn't want them to be able to bypass an entire room like being able to just pick up the urns in the room last year. And that is mainly because I see rooms like that as a great team-building exercise for the group, and one that is designed to allow everyone to participate in a meaningful way to solve the puzzle. If five people were able to just pick up the urns and carry them over, that means five other people just have to stand there and watch and don't get to participate at all in that room. To me, the fun for rooms like that is in having everyone participate in solving the puzzle together, not for a few people with the correct tokens to bypass the challenge and quickly solve it.

Mike Steele wrote:

Raywind wrote: I still remember the room from a couple of years ago with the poisoned drinks that your Medallion of Greyhawk didn't protect you against...

I think our Medallions of Greyhawk did protect us from that damage.

On the whole though, I like for tokens to have minimal effect in puzzle rooms. I kind of see the puzzle rooms as the rooms where people with a ton of tokens and those with just a few tokens are on fairly even footing.

Regarding (as an example), items granting fire resistance, I have no problem with people that have items granting fire resistance taking less (or no) damage from a trap that causes fire damage, but I wouldn't want them to be able to bypass an entire room like being able to just pick up the urns in the room last year. And that is mainly because I see rooms like that as a great team-building exercise for the group, and one that is designed to allow everyone to participate in a meaningful way to solve the puzzle. If five people were able to just pick up the urns and carry them over, that means five other people just have to stand there and watch and don't get to participate at all in that room. To me, the fun for rooms like that is in having everyone participate in solving the puzzle together, not for a few people with the correct tokens to bypass the challenge and quickly solve it.

IMO the best puzzle room yet (since 2011) was the hammer puzzle room. That room was amazing and really fun - especially once you found the solution and got to hear the results of your work!

Worst puzzle rooms:

Hot Lava Jars room (as I recal there were 6 planks, 3 bowls - only half the group were able to do anything (SRoEC should have allowed another player with a SRoEC to assist (maybe in helping the jar not fall over on the way over) where a player without one was using the planks?

Sun Temple Room in 2011 (Name?) where you couldnt use your hands to move the styrafoam block - only half our party made it and it was terribly explained. The fly mechanism there would have helped as well I would think - maybe with the rope suggestion Picc mentioned above.

I suppose my point is I am against puzzle breaking as well. But maybe offer some sort of alternative; ok so it dosnet break it but it can help by allowing the player to do something that helps the group in a different way.

Picc, a lot of what you suggest at the end happens already. The problem is that there are so many tokens after 11 years that no one can think of every possibility.

To a large extent, you can bypass four rooms with a few Stump Waters to negate the push damage. Much cheaper than an artifact. But not really any fun for anyone.

So the question is what about the treasure rooms? If you bypass a puzzle do you deserve the stamp? I'm not saying yes or no. But I suspect most people would be more in favor of bypassing a non-treasure room; the debate will be about the others.

I like to think having an item that lets you "bypass" a room is why you bought the token in the first place. In D&D we are always trying to get our hands on equipment that will help us in the dungeon and the reward is you get to live through the dungeon and take the loot. Limiting the effect of a token is really heavy handed and I know the people I play with get irritated when you get the DM fiat of no, antimagic, high winds, etc.

I personally don't feel cheated when I get to skip a trap/puzzle because we are well prepared. I feel rewarded for being prepared. Just like I don't feel cheated for beating a monster if we are geared up and prepared. That's the whole point of having gear(tokens in TD). Maybe we can get a DM Fiat box on the party card. Groups that want to be stopped from using items can get a check otherwise the default is your gear works as you would expect.

As far as elemental resistances go maybe work them into the design in a tiered way. ie.last years holy hand grenade toss in the last room. Perhaps leave it as is with no dark rift damage resistance but let the player get a foot closer for every 10 points of damage they can negate kind of thing. Or for make some of the puzzles deal incorrect guess damage in a form the supreme ring can counter (the build the gate black light puzzle comes to mind as a good possibility for making a resistance ring feel useful).

I had Medallion of Greyhawk for the poisoned drinks room and the GM, very properly told me: "Yes, that will work to destroy the puzzle. If you haven't solved it by the time we get to 10 minutes, you can use that method to defeat the puzzle."

That's the way to handle it, as Picc and CommanderFuron said. You paid for the token, it's supposed to work. As TD players, we WANT to do the puzzles, but we also want to feel clever by working around the puzzles. I feel that the solution presented above is a way to accomplish both goals.

And yes, working around a puzzle is the same as solving it. You just solved it in a way that the creator didn't think of.