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TOPIC: Pouches of gold

Pouches of gold 19 years 6 months ago #13

At the risk of people missing the post directly above by posting twice in a row...

The whole title thing is just notional at this point. The prices I put there are just to give an idea, and not well thought out at all. In fact, I hadn't even put up if you had to pay the entire sum to get to a level, or just the difference between current level and the next. That is, does it cost a total of 500 (200+300) or 700 (200+500) to become a lord?

This would have to be considered a lot to get it right, I think. Too much, and nobody will bother. Too little, and everybody is a King.

Anyhow, it's just one idea. What else would people be interested in trading Token gold for? Again, keep it in-game so that we can avoid any complications with creating a cash conversion rate.

Ideas?

Mike

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Pouches of gold 19 years 6 months ago #14

ideas i like:

buying titles with gold, and taking it that next step.
- open guilds, where members pay a fee to be a part, but get a cut of treasure from the dungeon taken by other members, get to pull items from a general treasure hoard, and get to be a part of an elite group.
- buying castles and other properties. of course, there probably aren't enough gold pieces in print right now to do this, but it is for the future.
- paying to have spells cast on you before you enter the dungeon. drop 500 gold, you can have a Mage Armor cast on you that lasts the whole dungeon. or Strength. or whatever.

having a non-TA party determine prices for items.
- TA cannot set the prices for their items, because that is price fixing. since they have intimate knowledge of the market, any changes that they would make to the prices would be akin to insider trading... they are using private knowledge not available to everyone to make decisions that would help them over the populace.
- Raven's numbers look good to me. Thanks, Raven, for being so insane about this.

the idea of a staff store.
- anything outside of the actual game that is sanctioned to buy / sell items is cool.
- of course, buy / sell would be with Gold tokens only, or in exchange for other Treasure tokens.
- Magic should not be sold. However, it could be traded for gold and other items. only players should sell magic to one another. i know in my D&D games, i never have a magic shop, except under extreme circumstances (high level players, or very large city.)
- going through the dungeon with no tokens. gimme a cool pin for that!

ideas i don't like:
- selling magic items from TA directly (staff store or tavern)
- having gems be rare. if they are rare, make them REALLY valuable... 500 gp or more. or, make them named... give them a background (crown jewels, sceptre head, brooch of WHATEVER)
- taking gold out of the economy. there is no extra gold in the economy. if you take out gold (the basis of the economy), then everything gets really crazy. you can't base on economy on items without a tradable currency. if you do, your prices will vary wildly with perceived availability.
- price list to sellers. you know, let the sellers find out on their own what the value of something. if they are too high, no one will buy from them. if they are too low, they will run out of stock quickly, and have little to show for it. supply and demand should determine the prices of the items.
- the suggestion that someone with more money wins, like in M:TG. i have always had a standing challenge to people i play magic with: gimme one of your decks, that you created, and play me with another one of your decks, that you created, and i will beat you. if you decks are even, and they are both competitive, i'll beat you. it has nothing to do with money, or how many tokens you have, or whatever. if you are good and smart, you pay attention and you don't do anything dumb, you will succeed. unless you get screwed by an incompetent DM... then no amount of tokens will save you.

this is neat... keep this discussion going.

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Pouches of gold 19 years 6 months ago #15

I'm still not seeing what the illegality is, Tim. For instance, an antiques dealer can sell antiques for whatever they like, and then people resell them for different prices.


However, the antiques dealer doesn't control how many antiques there are and who has them.

Perhaps it's because it makes buying random bags gambling?


I seem to recall this being a factor, but then again, I'm no lwayer.

OTOH, if you made the exchange rates based on commonality then you'd always be getting the same value in the random bags.


Except that several items of the same commonality obviously have different values (i.e. 4GP and 5GP).

Tim
True Heroes Watcher/PH
1st Dungeon Master
Yarrrrr! - Pirate Ninja

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Pouches of gold 19 years 6 months ago #16

buying titles with gold, and taking it that next step.
- open guilds, where members pay a fee to be a part, but get a cut of treasure from the dungeon taken by other members, get to pull items from a general treasure hoard, and get to be a part of an elite group.

I see the membership angle, but not the treasure angle. That is, it seems like you're creating an insurance pool or something like it? Wouldn't that take some of the thrill of discovery out of things?

Still, I do like the idea of using social identification as something to support the value of gold. :-)

- buying castles and other properties. of course, there probably aren't enough gold pieces in print right now to do this, but it is for the future.

True, I suppose - so you start with steads and mannor houses, generally with cheaper properties. In fact, set up a whole feudal thing, where the properties generate income themselves, meaning that you have to attract people to your fief in order to be able to do things like wage war on your neighbor. :-)

- paying to have spells cast on you before you enter the dungeon. drop 500 gold, you can have a Mage Armor cast on you that lasts the whole dungeon. or Strength. or whatever.

Right, at the adventurer's guild, or mage's guild, or whatever. Don't need tokens on the supply side then, which devalues magic (and puts a hard cap on the price of a magic item).

having a non-TA party determine prices for items.
- TA cannot set the prices for their items, because that is price fixing. since they have intimate knowledge of the market, any changes that they would make to the prices would be akin to insider trading... they are using private knowledge not available to everyone to make decisions that would help them over the populace.

See, insider trading doesn't assume that nobody should have insider information, it assumes that this information has to exist. The illegality only occurs when you manipulate a price, and then profit from it. Martha Stewart's pal isn't in jail because his company did something that altered a price, but because he benefitted from knowing about it in terms of the commodity in question.

Now, if the assumption is that it's problematic because it would be next to impossible to monitor sales (unless tokens went up on the CBT or NYSE or something), then I might see the point. OTOH, I'm also willing to admit that it might be something else entirely that I'm not seeing. I'll have to ask my lawyer friends (for I too do not make my living that way). :-)

- Raven's numbers look good to me. Thanks, Raven, for being so insane about this.

Indeed. Where would we be without the manic fan like this. :-)

the idea of a staff store.
- anything outside of the actual game that is sanctioned to buy / sell items is cool.
- of course, buy / sell would be with Gold tokens only, or in exchange for other Treasure tokens.
- Magic should not be sold. However, it could be traded for gold and other items. only players should sell magic to one another. i know in my D&D games, i never have a magic shop, except under extreme circumstances (high level players, or very large city.)

I'm not getting you here. What do you mean by "outside the game"? Done outside the perimiters of the dungeon itself, or by non-staff members? No cash I get, but then you say that the staff store should not sell magic? Indicating that they would only issue gold for magic items? The problem there is that, again until there's a value for gold, why do this? Why not trade directly with other players for the magic that you want? I'm not seeing people using the service.

- having gems be rare. if they are rare, make them REALLY valuable... 500 gp or more. or, make them named... give them a background (crown jewels, sceptre head, brooch of WHATEVER)

Again, this is a problem with the current exchange rates that have been established. Interestingly, given that it's less liquid, a big gem is actually worth less than a number of smaller denominations with equal value in GP.

But, again, the internal game market could be manipulated in such a way as to raise the value of gold again. But it would require what you don't want to see. Selling magic for low prices.

- taking gold out of the economy. there is no extra gold in the economy. if you take out gold (the basis of the economy), then everything gets really crazy. you can't base on economy on items without a tradable currency. if you do, your prices will vary wildly with perceived availability.

That's what I'm seeing already. While I trust Raven's list, I think in a month or two it'll be radically different. In any case, again, it'd be the shop selling magic that would need to exist to create stable prices.

- price list to sellers. you know, let the sellers find out on their own what the value of something. if they are too high, no one will buy from them. if they are too low, they will run out of stock quickly, and have little to show for it. supply and demand should determine the prices of the items.

I agree. That is, you can't set up a price list without actually selling at that rate. If you don't, then prices will do what they like anyhow, and the list will become innacurate instantly.

Mike

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Pouches of gold 19 years 6 months ago #17

i'm not gonna quote everything again, so here's the gist:

GUILDS:
do a guild thing like Kingdom of Loathing. everyone gets Karma, which equals an GP value that you can take from the Guild. you lose Karma the more items / gold you take. however, you can gain Karma by contributing items to the fund. it would remove some of the thrill of discovery, that's true. but, it would help create more of a community in game.

CASTLES:
yes... start small, and work your way up.

INSIDER TRADING:
my assumption was that the TA staff would be using the information they had to manipulate the market to their advantage. i know... i don't trust anyone.

STAFF STORE:
you know... i'm not sure what that first sentence means either. ignore it.
as for the magic thing, i think i was thinking more Big Ticket magic items (magic weapons, etc.). it wouldn't include minor magic items (common potions, scrolls, etc.)

GEMS:
yeah, it would be less valuable, but it would make more sense as a very rare. and, i do see your point about magic.

PRICE LIST:
we agree. sweet.

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Pouches of gold 19 years 6 months ago #18

Hmm. You could exempt big ticket items, I suppose. That might still allow for price stabilization.

Another huge problem that occurs to me is that any permenant item has huge value over any one use. I mean, how many times do you get to use that +1 for your magic weapon? Vs. the total +1's for a bless or something? Basically, even if you get the value of gold up based on consumables, you still have a problem with it's value vis a vis permenant items.

Mike

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Pouches of gold 19 years 6 months ago #19

wow... i never thought of that.

well, that should spike the value of weapons.

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Pouches of gold 19 years 6 months ago #20

Already has somewhat. That is, looking at Raven's list, one shot Very Rares go for about 50GP, while the cheapest permenants at that level of rarity go for 250 GP. I'm not sure what the rartities on weapons are, but a +1 dagger seems to go for 300 GP. So, rarity can't be an issue here - permenants are fetching at least five times as much as one shots.

And this is in the current economy, which I think might still be "forgiving." Meaning, when I first started collecting M:TG cards the GenCon they came out, we traded without caring about doing any research into rarity or potence. Just on how we felt at the moment about a card. As such, some collosally bad trades were made.

By the end of the con, that economy was already over, as our group was raided by the original Mr. Suitcase. Lost cards that day that would have paid to put my kids through college. Who knew?

Now, I'm not sure if TD tokens will ever achieve the sort of fungability that M:TG cards have, given the relative lack of opportunities to play. The current economy might persist. But at some point that bubble might burst, and then I think you'll see some radical pricing. Already you hear reports that people won't trade weapons at any price (Raven says that the prices are what's offered, but not accepted). Again, I think that given the current imbalances, that the trend is to more of this sort of polarization.

Unless steps are taken.

Mike

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Pouches of gold 19 years 6 months ago #21

"Unless steps are taken"

that sounds so... ominous.

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Pouches of gold 19 years 6 months ago #22

I'm not sure what the rartities on weapons are, but a +1 dagger seems to go for 300 GP. So, rarity can't be an issue here - permenants are fetching at least five times as much as one shots.


All weapons are Very Rare.

The current economy might persist. But at some point that bubble might burst, and then I think you'll see some radical pricing.


I can almost guarantee that the current economy will make some large shifts. Currently it is based on limited availability and unfamiliarity with mechanics. These situations are temporary. I expect that, by Indy 2005, the economy will be more stable.

Tim
True Heroes Watcher/PH
1st Dungeon Master
Yarrrrr! - Pirate Ninja

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Pouches of gold 19 years 6 months ago #23

All weapons are Very Rare.

Thanks for the info. Then the ratio is definitely about 5 or 6 to 1.

Maybe more interestingly, the cost of many of the other commons are listed as about the same, or even more than that of the other one shot items. Basically, it seems that rarity isn't much of an issue at all compared to how effective the item seems to be in terms of the dungeon.

Possibly because, as you say, people trading in Raven's examples weren't aware of the rarities at all. I wasn't until I read his list, for example.

Mike

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Pouches of gold 19 years 6 months ago #24

I wish you could buy the tokens at a discounted price minus the leather bag. Don't get me wrong I love the bags, but after six of them I don't really have much use for them. I plan on buying more tokens later, but I would really like to save a buck, and go with no bag :shock:.


jberling: I love you're idea of guilds, and thinking of a way to organize one now :D.

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