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TOPIC: Token Clarifications

Token Clarifications 16 years 4 weeks ago #1

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If there's anyone out there who knows the official rulings, I'd like to know what the following tokens do:

Cloak of Elvenkind
Boots of Elvenkind
Bracers of Archery (+2 dam)... but there were no bows in the game! Is this useable or not?
Scroll of Sanctuary (DC12/Will/neg) - what does that mean in-game?
Smokestick (10' cube) - sure, it makes smoke, but what bonus does the smoke give?
Scroll of Bless

(Some of these could probably be deduced by reading the D&D rules for them, but I noticed that not everything converted to True Dungeon as you might expect. Refs were playing it by ear in some cases. Are there "official TD rules" for them?)

Thanks!
"THERE WILL NEVER BE A TOKEN EQUAL TO A GOOD BRAIN!"- Smakdown

Check out these awesome resources:
Cranston's Character Generator for iDevices or Android
Amorgen's Excel Character Generator
And the ever-useful Token DataBase , expertly maintained by Druegar.

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Token Clarifications 16 years 4 weeks ago #2

The following Items are descriptionless and may need to be clarified:


· Scroll: Protection From Evil: I would assume this allows some AC bonus against evil.
· Scroll/Potion: Endure Elements
· Scroll: Bless: I would assume this allows some to-hit/damage bonus against undead/evil.
· Item: Smokestick: I would think this would provide some AC bonuses to the party.
· Scroll: Mage Armor: I'm guessing this allows the Mage to target someone and give them a temporary AC bonus.
· Assorted Items of Elvenkind: Silent movement or camouflage wouldn't seem all that beneficial.


The following items have also caused some general confusion:


· Scroll of Sanctuary: I understand the cryptic (DC12/Will/neg), but it doesn't seem to be all that useful.
· Masterwork Bard Instrument: Does this affect the song or the Bard's melee attack? Is it one-shot?
· Masterwork Thieve's Tools: Since it says once/game, does the Thief keep it after use for subsequent Dungeons?
· Bracers of Archery: Since not even the Ranger has a bow (and I haven't seen any Bow tokens), this seems rather useless.
· Assorted +1 Weapons: I would think that this would allow you to have dX+1 damage. How does this benefit the fighter (who has 1d10+2)?
· Bracers of Ogre Power: Does this confer any damage bonus for the extra strength?
· Wondrous Cloak +1/+2: Does this confer an AC bonus in addition to the Save bonus?
· Assorted Wands: Are the charges expended permanently or can they be used again at the next Dungeon?

Tim
True Heroes Watcher/PH
1st Dungeon Master
Yarrrrr! - Pirate Ninja

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Token Clarifications 16 years 4 weeks ago #3

Here are the items i've dealt with and how i handle it. I'm sure there will be more steadfast rules, but it's pretty much been on a DM basis up to now.

First off, any masterwork items or items that would make sense for you to keep like rope(unless you break it) you get to keep! Any items that have charges, the DM is supposed to mark the charges off, and once spent are not to be used in future adventures. So if you have a wand with 3 charges, you can use it once in TD2004 and bring it back to TD2005 with 2 more charges on it. Once it is all spent it is useless.


There is no bow in this or previous True Dungeon adventures, so the archery tokens do not do anything until we add ranged weapons to future True Dungeon adventures.

Unless specified, any weapon that is +1 or +2 are pluses to hit in combat. some tokens say hit and damage or some say only damage. If the token is for plus damage it would add to your damage bonuses already. so a 10d+2 fighter with a +1 damage weapon would do 10d+3.

Sanctuary is a powerful token as not only do you get pluses to your saves, but it saves you from combat. You can essentially take yourself out of combat and not be hurt unless you decide to re-enter combat in which case the spell effects are cancelled. A lot of players were using it to get to the next room and their party be damned!

Any Items like Smokestick and Bone Map Case are junk items that are meant to be traded in the tavern, up to this point they have no use in the dungeon.

Anytime you have a cloak or armor that has a +1 or +2 this adds to your AC. In the case of Mage Armor you can cast on any party member.

Finally, some tokens have labels like 'divine' on them. This means that only a cleric, paladin, or any other religious based class can use them. I was strict on this.

Hope that helps cause that's about all I know.

Tom

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Token Clarifications 16 years 4 weeks ago #4

Any Items like Smokestick and Bone Map Case are junk items that are meant to be traded in the tavern, up to this point they have no use in the dungeon.


Let me clarify a bit - These items have had no true use up to this point, but that does not mean they will have no use in the future.

Personally, in our discussions for future modules I hope we'll find some unique and useful ways to use items.

Not sure, but this year perhaps the smoke stick could have been used to find invisible characters... (This would have been at GM's discression)
Lance Lamont

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Token Clarifications 16 years 4 weeks ago #5

Sure there are some extenuating circumstances, like someone deciding to use a bone map case to prop a door open. That's not what it's made for and is sort of up to the DM whether or not it works. In general, though, every DM should know what an item does. A Cloak of Elvenkind should be the same no matter who is running the adventure. The first time through, I don't remember getting any tangible bonuses for the Cloak of Elvenkind, though I did get to hide well. The second time, those in cloaks didn't get attacked the first round. I also heard it gave you a bonus to hit and/or damage on all attacks and/or on sneak attacks. The implementation of the Cloak of Elvenkind seemed more like a collection of Tavern rumors, than actual game rules.

We also had problems with items that gave us save bonuses, because one of our DMs kept dishing out damage without allowing saves. Trap goes off - everyone takes 6 points. Efreeti blows up - everyone takes 2 points. Clearly we should have gotten saves, and the Cloak with the save bonuses should have helped us. As it was, it was a useless item, since we never got to roll saves. That's another clear case where the DMs should be more consistent.

I'm also in favor of True Dungeon rules being more like 3.5 D&D rules. I think that would help everyone involved. Most players have at least a basic understanding of D&D rules, as do most of the DMs and other volunteers. Making a TD implementation different from a D&D implementation is just opening the door wide for confusion and questionable DM rulings. For example: In D&D a magical +1 longsword is +1 to hit AND +1 to damage. Why change that for TD? Everyone already knows how that works in D&D. Isn't it simplest to handle it the same way in TD? Doesn't that lead to less confusion? I actually ran into several issues on rules discrepancies, not just where items are concerned. Like in D&D a bard can sing AND fight at the same time. Not allowing for that makes the Bard (a weak class in TD) even more useless than he already is. And how is it the 3rd level fighter doesn't have any bonuses to hit? In D&D his base attack bonus would be +3.

As far as bone map cases and useless items being good for trade... what exactly is the trade value of a useless item? The True Dungeon micro-economy also seems terribly skewed in a couple of places. I heard people were paying 50gp for Rope. And why is healing magic so bloody rare? In D&D you can get a potion of Cure Light Wounds for 25-50 gp. In True Dungeon, Cure Light is almost as rare as the Elixir of Health (which brings back the dead).

Another thing I don't like about items/spells is the one-room duration. Sure, some spells are sufficiently short in duration that saying they last for one room is fine. But for a spell like Mage Armor (which is rare anyway) you really should allow for a longer duration. In D&D a spell like Mage Armor is measured in HOURS, not rounds or minutes. A 3rd level caster could have cast Mage Armor once in the first room and had it last for the whole dungeon. If certain rooms cause certain out of game delays, then it's fine to say that those spells have expired. But as long as we're rushing through the dungeon with lizardmen on our tails, a spell with a 3-hour duration should last from the first room to the last. Period.

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Token Clarifications 16 years 4 weeks ago #6

Arcbat:

I agree with the need for standardization and if I read the TD staff responses right, that will be looked into for SoCal.

I have to disagree on the points where you seem to want the items in the TD to match up exactly with D&D. It would be nice, but if you allowed a Mage Armor (for example) to last the length of the dungeon, it would become unbalanced. Game balance has to take precedence sometimes.

I am interested, however, to see how they raise the bar on the dungeon for the Lv. 2+ characters next year.

Tim
True Heroes Watcher/PH
1st Dungeon Master
Yarrrrr! - Pirate Ninja

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Token Clarifications 16 years 4 weeks ago #7

I've also heard that Bards can use Divine scrolls, and that Bards can't use Divine scrolls. In 3.5 D&D they can cast healing magic, but in TD, who knows. What's the ruling on Bards and Divine magic?

As far as TD matching D&D, I can see the problem with a Cloak of Elvenkind. TD doesn't have Hide checks. So what does it do instead?

But I do think most items should have an implementation closer to D&D. I don't think that Mage Armor would be unbalancing, even if it lasted the whole dungeon. Mage Armor doesn't stack with armor, so it's only really useful for someone like the Mage, who has an abysmally low armor class in the first place. In D&D, Mage Armor is an important spell for preserving your mage on an adventure (since mages can't wear armor). I see no reason why it shouldn't work the same way in TD.

Speaking of saving the mage, I'd really like to see some sort of tactical placement in TD combat. In True Heroes, it was possible to be in the back row, behind Colossus (which was a nice place to be). In TD, you CAN'T get away from an attacker. There's no way to put the fighters on the front row and the mage and cleric in the back. There's also no clear cut way for the rogue to sneak around and get a sneak attack. And there are no ranged weapons, which I certainly hope they'll add for next year. It should be possible to get the protection of other allied combatants, or to withdraw from combat. In the spider room, I was hiding in the hallway when the spider attacked. I hadn't even entered the room, and still I was randomly targeted. That doesn't make sense.

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Token Clarifications 16 years 4 weeks ago #8

I think that it's genius that some items have only what utility you can find in them, and nothing specific in terms of the current dungeon. Means that you aren't tipped off as to what you'll need for the current dungeon. If every item had to have a use in every dungeon, then you'd have to have a very limited list of items, and people would always be looking for that opportunity to use their Bone Map Case in each dungeon.

Which would be pretty artificial.

I'm personally looking forward to using my bone map case to protect the map you get in room 1 in next year's game from water damage in room 5. Or whatever. What value does this give it? Well, a completely speculative one. What'll you give me for it? :-)


I think that Mage Armor could be made to balance lasting through more than one room. That said, I don't see any particular problem with how it is now. I'm sure that some of the rulings on things like duration are there to keep play simple enough that the whole game can be run in the short amount of time that they need it to run in. I don't see any problem with True Dungeon becoming somewhat it's own thing. In some ways it can't mimic D&D perfectly anyhow.

In general, at this point, the tokens are the only thing that really has me intrigued, and I look forward to creating uses for them in future dungeons. To a large extent, I think that GM lattitude here is what'll determine in the future whether such creativity is possible. I'm sure one camp will argue for making all rulings solid state, and another for flexibility. Personally, I'm not seeing how the game can ever be made strictly competitive, so I'd advocate making it more fun by allowing GMs more flexibility in these sorts of judgments.

Mike

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Token Clarifications 16 years 4 weeks ago #9

I think that it's genius that some items have only what utility you can find in them, and nothing specific in terms of the current dungeon. Means that you aren't tipped off as to what you'll need for the current dungeon. If every item had to have a use in every dungeon, then you'd have to have a very limited list of items, and people would always be looking for that opportunity to use their Bone Map Case in each dungeon.


This makes me wonder:

Did anyone develop experimental uses for the mundane items?

Did anyone fill their flask from any of the fountains?

Did anyone use their mirror to peer around corners?

Did anyone use their Gem Token in place of a prop gem?

Inquiring minds want to know!

Tim
True Heroes Watcher/PH
1st Dungeon Master
Yarrrrr! - Pirate Ninja

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Token Clarifications 16 years 4 weeks ago #10

We filled a flask from the fountain in the chamber with three doors. In fact, when one player drank from it, he was forced to tell the truth when questioned. So we assumed that we'd need the water for later to get an answer from somebody. Never used it for anything, however.

I kept on thinking that I might find a use for my Purify food and drink. Looking around the tavern, had I an opportunity to order food (didn't have time to even try it), I might have used the scroll then and there. :-)

Practically, you could reward characters with a healed HP for eating found food - which would give a use for the spell. Or, state that the characters are starving, and mark off HP for each room in which they find nothing to eat. In any case, some of the food could be bad...you get the idea.

Mike

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Token Clarifications 16 years 4 weeks ago #11

I love coming up with creative uses for items, in D&D, in True Dungeon, at home or on the road. I once went camping with lots of beer and no bottle cap opener (and they weren't the twist-off caps). So I used the door latch on my van to open bottles. I only busted about one in four, and hey, even the busted ones were 'open', right?!

But I also think you need consistent DM rulings. I hate to have a good idea, only to have it shot down by the DM. Some things will clearly work, others will clearly not. It isn't possible to see every eventuality when designing the dungeon. I did try to fill my flask from the magic fountain, but the DM said that the water evaporated as soon as it left the fountain. OK, that's cool. One ruling that I really wonder about though, since someone (was that Lance?) mentioned it, would the Smokestick help out with invisible creatures? That would certainly take it down the fast track from useless item to very useful item. For that sort of thing, I really would like for all the DMs to rule the same way.

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Token Clarifications 16 years 4 weeks ago #12

But I also think you need consistent DM rulings.


If TD operates like TH, I have a feeling that this is a constantly evolving thing. We had a brief meeting in TH on Thursday night to go over the day's events, pool feedback, and adjust mechanics. This is why TH was different in several aspects between Thursday and Friday. I have a hunch that TD is the same way.

Tim
True Heroes Watcher/PH
1st Dungeon Master
Yarrrrr! - Pirate Ninja

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