TOPIC: Re: Need Your Token Ideas for 2008!

Yes it would.  While things can change, my guess is it will be a fairly balanced swap.  Keep in mind there is always the Jeff Factor!   =D

apteryx mentioned a scroll of reincarnation, which might bring the player back as a different race... <br /><br />A cool rare token might be one that a player uses in the marshalling area and it allows that player to use a special character card, featuring an uncommon race and class.<br /><br />For example, turn the token in and you get to play as a Drow. <br /><br />The 4 ed D&D rules introduce two new player races, plus there are tons of alternate player races and classes from supplementals to choose from. <br />

I hate to get all down on what is clearly a very well thought out idea, but unless TD consistently gets, from one year to the next, the vast majority of its players as complete newbies, token sales will suffer dramatically. <br /><br />New players are the only ones that are going to buy what would in any previous year be total junk, and even then, whatever new players there are would quickly be serviced by more expeienced players, making profits with hoardes of what was trash but is now invaluable gear.<br /><br />I'm on the totally other end of the spectrum. I think the commons, uncommons, and rares are done perfectly as is, but in fact, I would like to see what are now URs become less rare with one or two classes of items above them.<br /><br />For instance:<br /><br />Common 7/10<br />Uncommon 2/10<br />Semi-Rare 1/10 (same item class as current rares)<br />Rare 1/50 (exhaustable items that are currently UR)<br />Very Rare  1/100 (permanent items currently UR)<br />UR 1/1000 (items more powerful than current URs)<br /><br />I know this idea will be unpopular on this forum, but always bear in mind the idea is to please the masses, not just the minority tokenoholics. Players want to more often find an item they can get excited about. <br /><br />I would even take this a step farther and in going through a dungeon, significantly increase the liklihood of semi-rares through URs. Remember, it's just 7 rooms, only 5-6 of which you will get treasure, and especially without a horn of plenty, the odds are very much against a player doing anything but keeping the dungeon free of trash in their acquisition of "treasure."<br /><br /><br />

<br />

<br /><br />Hm....the dungeon is supposed to be playable without ANY tokens.  Are we now saying that players need a +1 weapon in order to complete the dungeon?  If so, I'm with Henry, there's way too much power creep going on.  Really.  Players should NOT need a +1 weapon.  A +1 weapon is a Luxary.<br /><br />JKW<br />

<br />Just like I said above, my point is not at all about +1 weapons. Please read my above post. Begineers need simple weapons that have the capacity to take down the monsters they encounter. Taking away things like the common longsword doesn't exactly help them, unless there is something just as good at that level for them.<br />

<br /><br />Yes.  I'm not talking about taking out all items that would be comparable.  Just trying to find a storyline way of justifying removing some items (and replacing them with others of similar stature).<br /><br />Perhaps a 1-4 or 1-6 damage item now becomes a Club.<br />I'm not very good at knowing what items might be around a city, but I'm sure we can thing of other items to replace some of the ones we've seen for years.<br /><br />

<br />A cool rare token might be one that a player uses in the marshalling area and it allows that player to use a special character card, featuring an uncommon race and class.

<br /><br />That would be a really cool use for the 'Special' one year!

<br />A cool rare token might be one that a player uses in the marshalling area and it allows that player to use a special character card, featuring an uncommon race and class.

<br />I had suggested this last year but it was shot down. Maybe, this will be the year for something cool like this.<br />

<br />I hate to get all down on what is clearly a very well thought out idea, but unless TD consistently gets, from one year to the next, the vast majority of its players as complete newbies, token sales will suffer dramatically.

<br /><br />I disagree.<br /><br />Over the years, TD has picked up more repeat players, and token sales keep going up every year.<br /><br />I think your worries would be well founded if people were buying tokens just to equip themselves for a quick dungeon run. Hey - even after getting the 'free' bag of tokens every year, most people should be sufficiently equipped to run the dungeon.<br /><br />But the thing is that Gamers are always after that cool item of treasure - the +1 bonus, the cool potion, the chance at rolling 00% and will come back again and again. The more repeat customers TD has, the more likely people will be to "invest" (and sometimes invest heavily) in the game they love.

What about removing all the current weapons and replacing them with weapons that are able to be more cheaply made, which would fit in with the "at war" setting. This way we dump the longsword, but replace it with a weapon that does the same damage, and the same with the other weapons.<br /><br />Common weapons we have now:<br />edged d4, edged d6x2, edged d8, blunt d6, blunt d8, ranged d4, ranged d6<br /><br />Suggested new commons:<br />Dagger d4 (can't go wrong with that, maybe call it a knife)<br />Sickle d6<br />Shortspear d6<br />Spear d8<br />Club d6<br />Flail d8<br />Dart d4 expendible<br />Javilin d6 expendible<br /><br />Current uncommons<br />Edged d10 x4, Ranged d8<br /><br />Suggested new uncommons<br />Halbard d10<br />Glaive d10<br />GreatClub d10<br />Harpoon d8 expendible<br /><br />Do people like these?<br /><br />If people think there cool, then the weapon reds and purples would be made from these new items.<br />

Wht I'm saying is, if these repeat players who are used to having their rares in fact be a +1 weapon or some such, and have received non-magical long swords like their going out of style from years prior, why are they going to buy a pack of tokens when something along the lines of a non-magical weapon they already have several of is almost certainly the best they can expect.<br /><br />Is "00" a possibility? Sure it is and maybe a few people figure that into their reasoning but I can't imagine it's many. The odds are just too remote. Personally, if I received an UR in a random pack I'd be very pleasantly surprised, but paying $10 for a 1 in 100 shot hardly drives my decision as to whether or not to purchase...maybe others think differently.  :dontknow:

<br />I know at least one person who settled for a complete set of PLAT Scrolls.  The person didn't go for *every* Plat.<br />

<br /><br />Hey.  That could be me he's talking about...<br />And I never did get all of them - but then again, I was more worried about getting wooden commons than almost anything else this year.

Talking about tokens (and trying to come up with some on my own) got me thinking about how do the classes of tokens compare to their power.  To get a better handle on it I made the following chart<br /><br />Power per rareness of token<br />("undef" means there aren't examples in the given token class)<br /><br />Common<br />

<br />
• Weapons 'plus' (adds to to-hit): 0
<br />
• Max melee weapon damage
  <br />     
  • two handed-limited class: undef     
  <br />     
  • one handed-limited classes: 8 (4 ave)
  <br />     
  • all classes: 4 (2.5 ave)           
  <br />     
  <br />
<br />
• Ranged weapon damage     
  <br />     
  • Highest Max: 6 (3.3 ave)
  <br />     
  • Lowest Max: 4 (2.5 ave)
  <br />     
  <br />
<br />
• Max armor AC:
  <br />     
  • fighter:4 
  <br />     
  • rogue:4   
  <br />     
  • mage: undef
  <br />     
  <br />
<br />
• Max accessory AC (shields etc):  1 (shield)
<br />
• Max mods to saves:  undef
<br />
• Max gp value:  20
<br />
• Max Healing     
  <br />     
  • cleric/druid/bard: undef
  <br />     
  • everyone: 1
  <br />     
  <br />
<br />
• Max spell damage:       
  <br />     
  • melee: 6 (5.5 ave)
  <br />     
  • ranged: 4
  <br />     
  <br />
<br />
• Max item damage: 1 (requires a bow)
<br />
• Max game effecting gear/scroll functions:       
  <br />     
  • Weighted net (hit lowers target AC by 2),
  <br />     
  • detect magic, 
  <br />     
  • detect undead,
  <br />     
  • scroll case   
  <br />     
  <br />
<br />

<br /><br />uncommon<br />

<br />
• Weapons 'plus' (adds to to-hit): 0
<br />
• Max melee weapon damage:
  <br />     
  • two handed-limited class:10 (5.5 ave)
  <br />     
  • one handed-limited classes:10 (5.4 ave)
  <br />     
  • all classes: undef         
  <br />     
  <br />
<br />
• Ranged weapon damage:
  <br />     
  • Highest max: 8 (4.5 ave)
  <br />     
  • Lowest max: 8 (2.75 ave - fire every other round)(limited classes)
  <br />
<br />
• Max armor AC:
  <br />     
  • fighter:5 
  <br />     
  • rogue: undef
  <br />     
  • mage: undef
  <br />     
  <br />
<br />
• Max accessory AC (shields etc): 2 (shield)  1 (helm)
<br />
• Max mods to saves: +1 to each
<br />
• Max gp value: 50
<br />
• Max Healing
  <br />     
  • cleric/druid/bard:5
  <br />     
  • everyone:5 (but loose 2 ac for room)
  <br />     
  <br />
<br />
• Max spell damage:
  <br />     
  • melee: undef
  <br />     
  • ranged: 8 (Melf's arrow)
  <br />     
  <br />
<br />
• Max item damage: 8 (4.5 ave)(melee) (alchemists)
<br />
• Max game effecting gear/scroll functions:
  <br />     
  • alchemist pouch       
  <br />     
  • sleep arrow (consumable)
  <br />     
  • detect secret doors   
  <br />     
  • Stat mods (bull's str, owl's wis,  cat's grace)
  <br />     
  • universal solvent
  <br />     
  • Remove (paralysis, curse, disease, stone to flesh)
  <br />     
  • dust of appearance
  <br />     
  • bless (all +1 to hit (including range))
  <br />     
  • Knock
  <br />     
  <br />
<br />

<br /><br /><br />rare<br />

<br />
• Weapons 'plus' (adds to to-hit, damage already factored below): +1
<br />
• Max melee weapon damage:
  <br />     
  • two handed-limited class:11 (6.4 ave)
  <br />     
  • one handed-limited classes:11 (5.1 ave)
  <br />     
  • all classes: 5 (3.5 ave)
  <br />     
  <br />
<br />
• Ranged weapon damage:
  <br />     
  • Highest max: 10 (5.5 ave)
  <br />     
  • Lowest max: 9 (5.5 ave))
  <br />
<br />
• Items that add plus to hit or damage:
  <br />     
  • melee: +1 to hit +1 damage (gauntlets of ogre)
  <br />     
  • range: +2 damage (bracers of archery)       
  <br />     
  <br />
<br />
• Max armor AC:
  <br />     
  • fighter: 8         
  <br />     
  • rogue: 5           
  <br />     
  • mage: 4 (consumable)
  <br />     
  <br />
<br />
• Max accessory AC (shields etc): 2 (helm) 1 (ring of protection & bracers of defense)
<br />
• Max mods to saves: +2 to each, +4 to any one type
<br />
• Max gp value: 200
<br />
• Max Healing
  <br />     
  • cleric/druid/bard: 8
  <br />     
  • everyone: 5         
  <br />     
  <br />
<br />
• Max spell damage:
  <br />     
  • melee: undef                                 
  <br />     
  • ranged: 12 (multi-targets or multi-charge wand)
  <br />     
  <br />
<br />
• Max item damage: 10 (5.5 ave)(ranged - thunder stone)<br />
• Max game effecting gear/scroll functions:
  <br />     
  • Ring (permanent) versions of common consumables (feather fall, (frost, fire) resistance)
  <br />     
  • Ioun stone (permanent) version of uncommon consumables (Water breathing)
  <br />     
  • Ghost touch                 
  <br />     
  • boots (elvenkind, free action)
  <br />     
  • amulet of thorns             
  <br />     
  • slow poison                 
  <br />     
  • Death's door                 
  <br />     
  <br />
<br />

<br /><br />ultra rare<br />

<br />
• Weapons 'plus' (adds to to-hit, damage already factored below): +2
<br />
• Max melee weapon damage:
  <br />     
  • two handed-limited class: 12 (7.4 ave)(15 if evil)
  <br />     
  • one handed-limited classes: 10 (6.0 ave) (11 if undead (or is it 13? gearon's is confusing))
  <br />     
  • all classes: 6 (4.5 ave)
  <br />     
  <br />
<br />
• Ranged weapon damage:
  <br />     
  • Highest max: 11 (6.5 ave)
  <br />     
  • Lowest max: 10 (7.3 ave)
  <br />
<br />
• Items that add plus to hit or damage:
  <br />     
  • melee: +1 to hit +1 damage (+2,+2 if barb)
  <br />     
  • range: +1 to hit (gloves of dex)
  <br />     
  <br />
<br />
• Max armor AC:
  <br />     
  • fighter: 9
  <br />     
  • rogue: 6 
  <br />     
  • mage: 3 & +2 to saves (permanent)
  <br />     
  <br />
<br />
• Max accessory AC (shields etc): 3 (shield) 1 (ring of protection) 1 (gloves of dex)<br />
• Max mods to saves: undef
<br />
• Max gp value: 1000
<br />
• Max Healing
  <br />     
  • cleric/druid/bard: undef
  <br />     
  • everyone: raise to full HP (elixir of life)
  <br />     
  <br />
<br />
• Max spell damage:
  <br />     
  • melee: undef
  <br />     
  • ranged: undef
  <br />     
  <br />
<br />
• Max item damage: 10 (ranged - thunder stone)
<br />
• Max game effecting gear/scroll functions:
  <br />     
  • undo death effect (consumable)   
  <br />     
  • +1 to spells                     
  <br />     
  • save does no damage instead of half
  <br />     
  • half chance of avoid damage on first attack
  <br />     
  • draw 2 extra treasure
  <br />     
  • fly (consumable)
  <br />     
  • invisibility (consumable)
  <br />     
  • immunity to undead touch attacks (permanent)
  <br />     
  <br />
<br />

<br /><br /><br />One thing that popped out at me as I made this list that rare permanents are normally common consumables, and UR permanents are normally uncommon consumables.<br /><br />I was trying to generalize to fit everything into this table so I know some of the numbers don't show the whole picture.<br /><br />But if we are trying to avoid power creep, and you compare the effects of your idea to this table, I think you'll end up with a good idea which class (rareness) your token should be in.<br /><br /><br />Edits:

• Sept 20, 5pm: Changeded the "ranged damage" lines so they make more sense.
<br />           
• Sept 20, 6:30pm: Changed UR one-handed max, confused about undead plus on Gearon's
<br />           
• Sept 20, 6:40pm: Removed all the extra BBCODE that the online editor suddenly desided to add.
<br />           
• Sept 20, 8pm: Added averages to weapons

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<br /> Just looking at the theme.  War.  Resources are limited.  It might be difficult to outfit everyone in Greyhawk with the finest sword, armor, and shield.  <br />

<br /><br />But... we're not looking to outfit EVERYONE in Greyhawk with the finest.  Supposedly, each one of our groups is THE group that is on this quest mistakenly given to us in Year 1.  We are the heroes trying to save Greyhawk.  And heroes always have better stuff than commoners (or at least, have access to it).