TOPIC: Increasing number of low value URs

I don't see a great need to exclude the cheap URs. Everyone dumps them first, then there aren't any anymore and people dump other stuff as if these never got made.

Why were they so cheap in the first place? Largely because auctions have a threshold where they fund and other parts of the auction provided enough for that threshold. When the next bonus UR comes along, it might be about as worthless under current system, but with some dump transmute it becomes more valuable and the prices of other things in the auction go down because of it.

There's also an element to those two being weapons and there are plenty of weapon options already that they compete with, including competing with themselves, i.e. even if you want one of these tokens, you don't have much use for more than two. But, this just goes back to how there are far too many tokens in circulation relative to the size of the playerbase.

I think a base set of 15 UR tokens instead of 20 per year would be a good idea.

UR's also need at least one basic generic transmute. ANYTHING would be fine. I would be fine with something like this
UR= Golden Fleece
UR= 5k Bar
UR= 3-5 Aragonite etc etc etc

Pstyle wrote: I think a base set of 15 UR tokens instead of 20 per year would be a good idea.

UR's also need at least one basic generic transmute. ANYTHING would be fine. I would be fine with something like this
UR= Golden Fleece
UR= 5k Bar
UR= 3-5 Aragonite etc etc etc

I was actually thinking of going the other direction. If there were 30 URs in the set each year, the amount of each of them in circulation on average would be less than now.

I've also thought that it would be neat if there were (for instance) 30 URs in the set, but only 20 of them would be included as random URs in packs and treasure boxes. The other 10 would only be available as PYP orders. That would allow some more specialized URs as PYPs that a smaller number of players might want to order, but people wouldn't necessarily want as random URs. That could include consumables.

Matthew Hayward wrote: Here are my guesses as to what is contributing:

1. Increased supply: Huge numbers of full treasure runs taking place since the advent of VTD compared to normal.

2. Massive power creep at Legendary, and to a lesser extent relic, I think pushes things to where the best optimization points are rare level builds and legendary level builds. In ye-olden-days a legendary token got you +4 to STR over a UR, for example (Surtr's Girdle of Fire Giant Strength vs Girdle of Hill Giant Strength)

Now Viv's Amulet of Noble Might, for example, gives you:
+8 to STR
Add shield AC to reflex saves
Melee weapons crit on 19-20
Double strike (deal damage to a 2nd creature in melee if it's close enough)
Power Attack (select a number from 0-10, and then deduct that number from your melee to-hit bonus and add it to your melee damage bonus)
When compared with UR Medallion of the Sweeetwoods

The distance between UR and legendary is much, much more than the distance between common and UR for a lot of tokens nowadays.

3. General availability of Relic/Legendaries in numerous slots. Let's consider how things were back in 2018, the year before we started in on class legendries.

In the 7 years between 2012-2018 there were:
* 19 legendaries
* 1 Grand Eldrtich
* 2 Eldritch Relics
* 21 Relics

In the 5 years since we've added:
* 20 legendaries
* 1 Grand Eldrtich
* 2 Eldritch Relic
* 24 Relics

4. UR level tokens printed as completion, and now Stalker level tokens. Belt of the Brave is the most obvious example, but there are plenty more. By my estimation, any of these could have been URs: Belt of the Leopard, Goggles of Anticipation, Ioun Stone Ruby Orb, Ioun Stone Ruby Pyramid, Ioun Stone Ruby Spindle, Bead of the Deeper Ones, Charm of the Kraken, Figurine of Power: Parrot, Ioun Stone Kraken Coral Orb, Bead of the Dire Bear, Charm of Targeting, Charm of the Wind, Earcuff of Enlightenment, Ioun Stone Jasper Ellipsoid, Bead Cleric's Piety, Boots of Inferno Step, Horn of Rally, Ring of Pandemonium, Soul Coffer, Brawler's Horn, and about 6 of the Stalker items.

#4 is a really good point. Mass quantities of completion tokens and tokens like Stalker Tokens that are as good or better than URs really tank the demand and value of those URs. Ideally I'd like for all of those to be less powerful than a UR, but that hasn't been the case.

I do recognize how difficult it is for Jeff to create so many participation/Stalker/etc tokens and not have them infringe on the UR space. He (and the players) want them to be special and better than a standard rare token. The gap between Rares and URs is often very small, so it's very difficult for Jeff I'm sure to create tokens better than a Rare but not as good as a UR.

Good point on some of the other contributing factors.

I personally also think TPTB need to stop printing new TEs (beyond uber avarice), and making this worse by doing so, but I know Jeff may be reluctant to retreat from the previously announced plans for more TE beads, given that they drive 8ks.

Mike Steele wrote:

Pstyle wrote: I think a base set of 15 UR tokens instead of 20 per year would be a good idea.

UR's also need at least one basic generic transmute. ANYTHING would be fine. I would be fine with something like this
UR= Golden Fleece
UR= 5k Bar
UR= 3-5 Aragonite etc etc etc

I was actually thinking of going the other direction. If there were 30 URs in the set each year, the amount of each of them in circulation on average would be less than now.

I've also thought that it would be neat if there were (for instance) 30 URs in the set, but only 20 of them would be included as random URs in packs and treasure boxes. The other 10 would only be available as PYP orders. That would allow some more specialized URs as PYPs that a smaller number of players might want to order, but people wouldn't necessarily want as random URs. That could include consumables.

Sure, the average number of any given PYP might be lower, but there will be more cheap PYPs around if you increase the number that come out per year. For 2024 URs there is one that I will be getting, three more that I would be fine pulling and might use and the rest I don't really want. So that means 16 URs that I could be selling cheap. Using your example, if there were 30 available, that potentially 20 UR that I don't need and could sell cheap.

I suggested that URs could be part of the Safehold program recipes but so far it hasn't happened. Here was my original suggestion on that front:

I think that you should consider a brand new trade good that is only used to craft Mythic tokens. That trade good is created by trading in any 5 URs. The Mythic recipes would each require one of these (or, perhaps, Mythic 2 requires one and Mythic 1 requires two). The nice thing about this is:

- It gives people something to do with some of the old crappy URs which currently have no transmute path
- It keeps the Mythic recipes timeless. Where normally Legendaries require a specific relic plus specific URs, the Mythic recipes would effectively take any 5 or 10 URs, so they are always something that can be made.

Kirk Bauer wrote: I suggested that URs could be part of the Safehold program recipes but so far it hasn't happened. Here was my original suggestion on that front:

I think that you should consider a brand new trade good that is only used to craft Mythic tokens. That trade good is created by trading in any 5 URs. The Mythic recipes would each require one of these (or, perhaps, Mythic 2 requires one and Mythic 1 requires two). The nice thing about this is:

- It gives people something to do with some of the old crappy URs which currently have no transmute path
- It keeps the Mythic recipes timeless. Where normally Legendaries require a specific relic plus specific URs, the Mythic recipes would effectively take any 5 or 10 URs, so they are always something that can be made.

I'd be onboard with that. I'd also be OK with some Relics requiring "any" UR and Legendaries requiring multiple "any" UR (limited to URs from the base sets).

If there were more people coming into the game and getting interested in upgrades, a broader range of secondary market UR prices would actually be a good thing I think.

The 3 and 4 star transmutes try to bridge the huge price gap between R and UR, but the breadth of token concepts is lower than UR (~3-4 per year compared to 20) and while the cost for a player to obtain a fresh one from TD is less than the URs, the effort is higher. I'm not sure how well they currently provide a bridge to people potentially interested in upgrades.

I bought a +2 great axe as my first UR on the secondary market for $40 if I recall correctly 8-9 or so years ago so it's not like this is an entirely new phenomenon. I wasn't willing to drop $100 on a game I'd be likely to play 3-4 times a year at that point, but $40 was tolerable.

Finding a way to sink some of the just ok URs into transmutes may be needed unless player growth really kicks off, but I'd hate to see something created that can pull so many out of the secondary market people don't feel it worth tossing them out on ebay.

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Here are my guesses as to what is contributing:

1. Increased supply: Huge numbers of full treasure runs taking place since the advent of VTD compared to normal.

2. Massive power creep at Legendary, and to a lesser extent relic, I think pushes things to where the best optimization points are rare level builds and legendary level builds. In ye-olden-days a legendary token got you +4 to STR over a UR, for example (Surtr's Girdle of Fire Giant Strength vs Girdle of Hill Giant Strength)

Now Viv's Amulet of Noble Might, for example, gives you:
+8 to STR
Add shield AC to reflex saves
Melee weapons crit on 19-20
Double strike (deal damage to a 2nd creature in melee if it's close enough)
Power Attack (select a number from 0-10, and then deduct that number from your melee to-hit bonus and add it to your melee damage bonus)
When compared with UR Medallion of the Sweeetwoods

The distance between UR and legendary is much, much more than the distance between common and UR for a lot of tokens nowadays.

3. General availability of Relic/Legendaries in numerous slots. Let's consider how things were back in 2018, the year before we started in on class legendries.

In the 7 years between 2012-2018 there were:
* 19 legendaries
* 1 Grand Eldrtich
* 2 Eldritch Relics
* 21 Relics

In the 5 years since we've added:
* 20 legendaries
* 1 Grand Eldrtich
* 2 Eldritch Relic
* 24 Relics

4. UR level tokens printed as completion, and now Stalker level tokens. Belt of the Brave is the most obvious example, but there are plenty more. By my estimation, any of these could have been URs: Belt of the Leopard, Goggles of Anticipation, Ioun Stone Ruby Orb, Ioun Stone Ruby Pyramid, Ioun Stone Ruby Spindle, Bead of the Deeper Ones, Charm of the Kraken, Figurine of Power: Parrot, Ioun Stone Kraken Coral Orb, Bead of the Dire Bear, Charm of Targeting, Charm of the Wind, Earcuff of Enlightenment, Ioun Stone Jasper Ellipsoid, Bead Cleric's Piety, Boots of Inferno Step, Horn of Rally, Ring of Pandemonium, Soul Coffer, Brawler's Horn, and about 6 of the Stalker items.

#4 is a really good point. Mass quantities of completion tokens and tokens like Stalker Tokens that are as good or better than URs really tank the demand and value of those URs. Ideally I'd like for all of those to be less powerful than a UR, but that hasn't been the case.

I do recognize how difficult it is for Jeff to create so many participation/Stalker/etc tokens and not have them infringe on the UR space. He (and the players) want them to be special and better than a standard rare token. The gap between Rares and URs is often very small, so it's very difficult for Jeff I'm sure to create tokens better than a Rare but not as good as a UR.

The gap between Rares and URs is too narrow I think. It would be good to bump future URs closer to today's relics, and bump future relics and legendaries up a bit - maybe the equivalent of +1 to one stat at each level. There is room to do it now before epic comes into play and it would leave room for completion tokens to sit just under URs.

Aegoce wrote: If there were more people coming into the game and getting interested in upgrades, a broader range of secondary market UR prices would actually be a good thing I think.

The 3 and 4 star transmutes try to bridge the huge price gap between R and UR, but the breadth of token concepts is lower than UR (~3-4 per year compared to 20) and while the cost for a player to obtain a fresh one from TD is less than the URs, the effort is higher. I'm not sure how well they currently provide a bridge to people potentially interested in upgrades.

I bought a +2 great axe as my first UR on the secondary market for $40 if I recall correctly 8-9 or so years ago so it's not like this is an entirely new phenomenon. I wasn't willing to drop $100 on a game I'd be likely to play 3-4 times a year at that point, but $40 was tolerable.
... /quote]

SNIP

For years this was and mostly still is me. Many of my non vol URs were stuff i picked up on ebay or folks discount trade areas as i usually couldn't justify the 100~ pyp price for something i was playing a bare handful of times a year. Even now i look for discount URs for alt or loaner builds as it gets me to spend money even second hand i normally wouldn't.

What I'm about to say may be unpopular in this thread.

1. It's simply not possible for every new UR level token to both be highly in demand because it's replacing an older UR in everyone's build and for that same UR to hold a value of $100 or more into the future. The UR level of tokens should not be designed in such a way that they must replace a token in a current BiS build or you will rapidly escalate this game into dangerous territory that will ruin its long-term outlook. You can't retire by selling your token collection if the game dies.

"But Exbalz, tokens need to be exciting in order to drive sales."

2. There is a lot of design space available for both creativity, fun, and exploration of a class and its capabilities. I may be a bit biased here but seeing ranged ranger options open up an alternative build style over the last few years has been exciting to see. Alternative builds for classes should be explored both for long-term health of the game and to let entrenched players switch things up from time to time. How cool would it be to have a series of Cleric tokens that turn the Cleric into an unholy 2H wielding wrecking ball but severely restrict their ability to heal? Or what about a rogue build that revolves around "cooldown" based abilities on tokens that are powerful but situational?

"But Exbalz, there are a lot of players that are firmly entrenched and don't want to change their build"

3. Bring a friend to the game! Or make a friend out of a new player that's in your pug run! At some point, every single one of us will stop playing this game. Not every new player wants to obtain only the BiS tokens, some people want to maximize fun when playing a game (novel concept). Oh and by the way, expanding the player base increases demand for our precious poker chips, so if someone wants to play a drunken punchy wizard with butterfly wings and wants tokens that support that end, let's encourage them to be as drunk and punchy as they want (in-game). In case you haven't noticed, True Dungeon is currently getting its teeth kicked in on r/gencon by feedback from players that tried the game, had one bad experience with players in their group and not only did they not come back, they are now actively discouraging other potential new players from trying the game. Don't like making friends and only care about seeing your UR go from $50 to $65? Think of this as a way to enable your goals by expanding the player base! You can't retire by selling your token collection if the game dies.

"But Exbalz, the game needs a price point in between rare and UR"

4. Agreed. UR's with a market price below PYP lets a lesser invested player feel like they're getting an upgrade or maybe two for the price of a PYP. Don't know anyone who wants to participate at this in-between price point? See also Point #3.

I fully realize that some of this may come off a bit snarky, but the design ideas I see being presented here tend towards the "this sure would help me and my $50 UR problem" and not "this would help the overall health of the game, which is good for everybody". Let's aim for the latter and the former will take care of itself. Community uber alles.