TOPIC: Treasure creep constructive ideas

Reprint a TE, any TE, but preferably COGF since synergy.

IMO the only "fix" period full stop is to let people catch up at the PYP price. And yes I know all the, it will hurt sales, what of the COA, the sky is falling self serving arguments against it. I've been beating this drum for a few years now.

P.S. I'm having a bad day so Im less inclined to be polite about stuff right now. You all know what were doing is both unsustainable and unhealthy for the game long term but it wont stop for various reasons so is what it is I guess.

Picc wrote: P.S. I'm having a bad day so Im less inclined to be polite about stuff right now. You all know what were doing is both unsustainable and unhealthy for the game long term but it wont stop for various reasons so is what it is I guess.

I think it could eventually stop - eventually enough bad decisions can be made for a game that it just collapses. At that point… no new TE.

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote: Step 4: (stolen somewhat from Hayward) For the +1 tokens (and maybe the 2023, 2025, and 2027 as well), in addition to offering them as URs, make them a timeless transmutable item so they are always available.

One flaw in that design is that in a few years people will be complaining that they missed out on the first few slotless +1 TE Tokens, and want them reprinted. In 10 years you'd have people very vocally complaining every design cycle that TD should let them catch up on the 10 that they missed.

You either missed Step 4 or I'm misunderstanding your concern.

I probably missed it, but also don't understand it. Is the proposal that each +1 TE token is available as a PYP, but also as an eternal transmuted token? So in year 6, you can buy a new one as a PYP and somehow still transmute the other 5? If they never go out of print, then there will be zero of them bought as "extras" for resale or trading, which I suspect is a large part of the sales.

That assumes that the recipe is set to roughly the same cost as a PYP. That doesn't have to be the case. The recipe could be targeted at a cost somewhere around 1.5x a PYP. And since this is treading somewhat new ground not necessarily covered by precedent, you could even have the recipes adjust over time (with some amount of proper advance notice).

You could even make the recipe similar to the treasure maps as a way to soak up extra trade items. I would like the cap to be 30, for a few reasons. I like 'round' numbers and it means TD can just give three 10x chips to players at the cap. I would like to see the new legendary TE go into an IS slot and get a player to max draws with the CoA equipped. It would allow players to free up two of the three IS slots that get used up with the 3 IS TEs and maybe get them onto the market for newer/lesser equipped players.

+1 to the rest of your suggestion

We could just start over with a new treasure tier. Idea: Veteran treasure, a separate box with better ratios/unique loot and less pulls. We’d be able to convert our max TE items into a slotless token that gave us x pulls from the veteran treasure box, and then we’d start over with new TEs in future year that let us pull from the regular treasure box. New players wouldn’t get access to the veteran box unless they bought the new slotless token from someone else, and everyone would start from a level playing field on the normal treasure box.

I mean, let’s be honest, it’s a collectible game. Not everyone has to have access to every token. This idea retains the value of collections and incentivizes new spending. In MMOs, when you start hitting numbers creep the solution is a stat crunch.

Josh Wilhelmi wrote: We could just start over with a new treasure tier. Idea: Veteran treasure, a separate box with better ratios/unique loot and less pulls. We’d be able to convert our max TE items into a slotless token that gave us x pulls from the veteran treasure box, and then we’d start over with new TEs in future year that let us pull from the regular treasure box. New players wouldn’t get access to the veteran box unless they bought the new slotless token from someone else, and everyone would start from a level playing field on the normal treasure box.

I mean, let’s be honest, it’s a collectible game. Not everyone has to have access to every token. This idea retains the value of collections and incentivizes new spending. In MMOs, when you start hitting numbers creep the solution is a stat crunch.

A separate treasure box for veterans creates bad optics. We already hear people saying this a 'pay to win' game, even though it isn't. Imagine a new player going to grab their treasure and then being told that box where people are getting piles of tokens isn't for them. Now imagine them learning the forbidden box has better tokens in it.

wow! this thread is a can of worms... good ideas, bad ideas, things to really ponder, some ideas just need a little tweeking (not twerking).

i believe there should be a way for newer players to get to max treasure level (whatever it is) without having to purchase all the OOP tokens on the secondary market. i also believe it should be available on the same timeline as HoP. RoR, etc, turn in for the CoA. how many years did it take to get to 23 draws? now how do you offer TEs with out the veterans raising the bar/limit?

i really don't like the different levels of treasure draws. i have heard some folks complain about, "it seems the old timers get lots of good things, like someone is looking out for them." give me a break.

I think you offer TEs that can be transmuted and then free up slots. That was why I suggested a recipe that ends up making an IS of Avarice that gets a player to the cap if they equip it with the CoA. It would free up two IS slots while maxing out treasure and be something new players could make. Maybe even offer a 3rd recipe for the CoA in the process that uses tokens that end up getting made over the next 5+ years? Fiddy's suggestion of the +1 TEs being made every other year with a recipe combining those was a good one as well. I think a proclamation from TPTB, with a caveat that it can be revisited/altered at some point in the future, about a cap and possible future transmutes would be great for 'economy'.

balthasar wrote: I think you offer TEs that can be transmuted and then free up slots. That was why I suggested a recipe that ends up making an IS of Avarice that gets a player to the cap if they equip it with the CoA. It would free up two IS slots while maxing out treasure and be something new players could make. Maybe even offer a 3rd recipe for the CoA in the process that uses tokens that end up getting made over the next 5+ years? Fiddy's suggestion of the +1 TEs being made every other year with a recipe combining those was a good one as well. I think a proclamation from TPTB, with a caveat that it can be revisited/altered at some point in the future, about a cap and possible future transmutes would be great for 'economy'.

How would a cap be great for the economy? Opinions can differ on how much a treasure cap and/or reprints of TE URs would impact sales, but it's hard to argue that sales wouldn't go down, because in both cases there will be a percentage of the player base that would buy a new TE UR without a cap but won't need to buy any more TEs if they're at the cap and/or if they already have the TE URs that are being reprinted.

Mike Steele wrote:

balthasar wrote: I think you offer TEs that can be transmuted and then free up slots. That was why I suggested a recipe that ends up making an IS of Avarice that gets a player to the cap if they equip it with the CoA. It would free up two IS slots while maxing out treasure and be something new players could make. Maybe even offer a 3rd recipe for the CoA in the process that uses tokens that end up getting made over the next 5+ years? Fiddy's suggestion of the +1 TEs being made every other year with a recipe combining those was a good one as well. I think a proclamation from TPTB, with a caveat that it can be revisited/altered at some point in the future, about a cap and possible future transmutes would be great for 'economy'.

How would a cap be great for the economy? Opinions can differ on how much a treasure cap and/or reprints of TE URs would impact sales, but it's hard to argue that sales wouldn't go down, because in both cases there will be a percentage of the player base that would buy a new TE UR without a cap but won't need to buy any more TEs if they're at the cap and/or if they already have the TE URs that are being reprinted.

People have been complaining about a glut of trade goods or the drop in the prices of those goods. A limit on treasure would prop the prices up, helping the economy. At no point did I mention reprints,but lets go there. If you are really concerned about TD being able to sell tokens, why are you so adamant about the AoTF not being reprinted? Wouldn't bringing it back every 5 years help sales? I feel like you are not thinking about bringing new players into the game and encouraging them to buy more tokens, which is what reprints, new recipes, and a chance to get up to max treasure would accomplish.

If there is going to be no limit to how much treasure people can get per run, be prepared for the price of trade goods to bottom out and/or the recipes for transmutes to constantly increase. I don't believe either of those outcomes are good for the health of the game.

Keep in mind that I did say that any proclamation should come with the caveat that it could be changed. if a cap proves to hinder sales, it could just be changed in the future.

balthasar wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

balthasar wrote: I think you offer TEs that can be transmuted and then free up slots. That was why I suggested a recipe that ends up making an IS of Avarice that gets a player to the cap if they equip it with the CoA. It would free up two IS slots while maxing out treasure and be something new players could make. Maybe even offer a 3rd recipe for the CoA in the process that uses tokens that end up getting made over the next 5+ years? Fiddy's suggestion of the +1 TEs being made every other year with a recipe combining those was a good one as well. I think a proclamation from TPTB, with a caveat that it can be revisited/altered at some point in the future, about a cap and possible future transmutes would be great for 'economy'.

How would a cap be great for the economy? Opinions can differ on how much a treasure cap and/or reprints of TE URs would impact sales, but it's hard to argue that sales wouldn't go down, because in both cases there will be a percentage of the player base that would buy a new TE UR without a cap but won't need to buy any more TEs if they're at the cap and/or if they already have the TE URs that are being reprinted.

People have been complaining about a glut of trade goods or the drop in the prices of those goods. A limit on treasure would prop the prices up, helping the economy. At no point did I mention reprints,but lets go there. If you are really concerned about TD being able to sell tokens, why are you so adamant about the AoTF not being reprinted? Wouldn't bringing it back every 5 years help sales? I feel like you are not thinking about bringing new players into the game and encouraging them to buy more tokens, which is what reprints, new recipes, and a chance to get up to max treasure would accomplish.

If there is going to be no limit to how much treasure people can get per run, be prepared for the price of trade goods to bottom out and/or the recipes for transmutes to constantly increase. I don't believe either of those outcomes are good for the health of the game.

Keep in mind that I did say that any proclamation should come with the caveat that it could be changed. if a cap proves to hinder sales, it could just be changed in the future.

Off topic a bit, but I wonder how big an impact on Trade Goods token draws have compared to token purchases. It seems like designing transmutes properly (like the Treasure Maps) might be the best way to limit the glut of trade goods by providing something enticing to spend them on.

The main reason I'm against reprinting the AoTF is because Jeff stated a number of years ago that it would never be reprinted, and people made buying decisions based on that ruling. People bought and/or held onto AoTF based on the dual statements that it would be part of the next TE Transmute recipe and that it wouldn't be reprinted, and changing either of those years later seems inappropriate to me.

As far as reprinting TE URs in general, or putting in a Treasure Chip Cap, I wouldn't say necessarily that I'm against either. I think either/both would result in a reduction in token sales and I think that should be taken into account, but if True Dungeon decided one or both were necessary for the best of True Dungeon, I'd be OK with that. I think periodically reprinting TE URs would have diminishing returns. The first reprinting (especially of older ones) would probably have pretty good sales (not nearly as good as a brand new TE UR though because a lot of people already have the reprinted TE UR), but subsequent reprintings would only sell to players that didn't already have one, and the secondary market might be flooded with them as anyone with extras would try to liquidate them knowing that they were going to be reprinted in the future.

I know personally, I buy a LOT of each TE UR (one each for my entire group plus plenty of extras), and a cap or reprints would greatly reduce or stop completely my TE UR purchases. But, there are always other things to spend my money on.

Reprinting AoTF is small potatoes compared to the nerf of x2 Eldritch healing and LoDS that hit after I acquired those. I get a reprint of AoTF is not a great outcome, but I think it is better than the alternative (ever inflating treasure enhancers and poor treasure boxes - and for the record I am one of those holding onto AoTF). But if AoTF is a bridge too far go ahead and reprint: Charm of Good Fortune, Ring of Riches, and Horn of Plenty.

The game is better when new players can be brought up to speed.

OrionW wrote: Reprinting AoTF is small potatoes to the nerf to x2 Eldritch healing and LoDS that hit after I acquired those. I get a reprint of AoTF is not a great outcome, but I think it is better than the alternative (ever inflating treasure enhancers and poor treasure boxes - and for the record I am one of those holding onto AoTF). But if AoTF is a bridge too far go ahead and reprint: Charm of Good Fortune, Ring of Riches, and Horn of Plenty.

The game is better when new players can be brought up to speed.

Horn of Plenty is also on the list of "never to reprint" list.

It was the impetus for the creation of the Charm of Avarice in the first place.

While I definitely agree that URTE reprints would be good for new players so would updating the CoA recipe to allow any URTE as 1 point towards the transmute (as was suggested and denied at the time of the token's initial design). Barring that change there needs to be a new way for newly joining players to catch up to the current players which is attainable, it's why tokens get reprinted in the first place.

That all being said it would be a VERY BAD precedent for Jeff to reprint the AoTF or CoA being as they are the only two tokens he's EVER stated will not be reprinted.