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TOPIC: Consistency of Focus Items

Consistency of Focus Items 1 week 2 days ago #73

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Harlax wrote: Can a Druid really simultaneously be a both a casting powerhouse and an elite damage polymorph damage character? I passed on the Druid Relic legendary because my build maxed healing and nerfed strength.


You can't maximize both at the same time, but you can be highly effective at both with only a bit of sacrificing compared to either extreme.
Here is the Druid build I used at GenCon. Mixed Druid build

It isn't the most min/max build, but I felt it was extremely effective at polymorph, spell damage, and healing.


Where you maximized Strength, I maximized Con. Otherwise the builds are very similar. I’d hesitate to go epic with the HP on your build.


Keep in mind, on TDCC, CoAS only gives 1 HP. A full party would be 9 more. Plus, the Paladin can just guard the druid if needed.

@Mike, just because one class (Monk) is OP doesnt mean another isnt ALSO OP.
You're never going to agree or admit the druid is, I think we can all see that. Pointing to the monk and saying, "they're worse than druids, look!" does not mean much in all honesty. Also, Monks can't really heal, even at 2nd or 3rd best.


Are you seriously suggesting a member of Team Synergy doesn’t understand the interaction of synergistic tokens with character builders. :P :P

My comment still stands.
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Last edit: by Harlax.

Consistency of Focus Items 1 week 2 days ago #74

Harlax wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Harlax wrote: Can a Druid really simultaneously be a both a casting powerhouse and an elite damage polymorph damage character? I passed on the Druid Relic legendary because my build maxed healing and nerfed strength.


You can't maximize both at the same time, but you can be highly effective at both with only a bit of sacrificing compared to either extreme.
Here is the Druid build I used at GenCon. Mixed Druid build

It isn't the most min/max build, but I felt it was extremely effective at polymorph, spell damage, and healing.


Where you maximized Strength, I maximized Con. Otherwise the builds are very similar. I’d hesitate to go epic with the HP on your build.


Keep in mind, on TDCC, CoAS only gives 1 HP. A full party would be 9 more. Plus, the Paladin can just guard the druid if needed.

@Mike, just because one class (Monk) is OP doesnt mean another isnt ALSO OP.
You're never going to agree or admit the druid is, I think we can all see that. Pointing to the monk and saying, "they're worse than druids, look!" does not mean much in all honesty. Also, Monks can't really heal, even at 2nd or 3rd best.


Are you seriously suggesting a member of Team Synergy doesn’t understand the interaction of synergistic tokens with character builders. :P :P

My comment still stands.


Not you specifically, but perhaps everyone else reading along (if there is anyone left at this point)?

Either way, I honestly dont know if TDCC gives one the HP for using a character builder. I know the apps do not.
First ever death in True Horde
"Well, with you guarding 2 players, that means you take 90. Are you dead?"
-Incognito

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My Current Paladin Build 

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Consistency of Focus Items 1 week 2 days ago #75

Harlax wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Harlax wrote: Can a Druid really simultaneously be a both a casting powerhouse and an elite damage polymorph damage character? I passed on the Druid Relic legendary because my build maxed healing and nerfed strength.


You can't maximize both at the same time, but you can be highly effective at both with only a bit of sacrificing compared to either extreme.
Here is the Druid build I used at GenCon. Mixed Druid build

It isn't the most min/max build, but I felt it was extremely effective at polymorph, spell damage, and healing.


Where you maximized Strength, I maximized Con. Otherwise the builds are very similar. I’d hesitate to go epic with the HP on your build.


Why hesitate? You can always heal yourself. ;)

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Consistency of Focus Items 1 week 2 days ago #76

Brad Mortensen wrote: @MikeSteele - I agree, Monks and Rangers are OP melee classes. But nobody is arguing that focus should apply to melee damage. I’m trying to stay on topic a little bit.

And if you don’t think those are the three most important aspects in combat, what would you suggest? But let’s do it in a different thread.


Brad, I can make it quick. I think the most important factor in combat is the amount of damage each class does to the monster, regardless of how that damage is done (melee, ranged, spell, etc). That's the list that Matthew developed, with Monk at the top, Ranger #2, and the Wizards #3 and #4 I think, with the Druid in the middle of the pack at #7. Although I do think the Bard's power level is often underestimated, since the Bard can add +4/+4 to everyone's combats in addition to the direct damage the Bard can do. And I understand that reasonable people can disagree on that.

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Consistency of Focus Items 1 week 2 days ago #77

Mike Steele wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: @MikeSteele - I agree, Monks and Rangers are OP melee classes. But nobody is arguing that focus should apply to melee damage. I’m trying to stay on topic a little bit.

And if you don’t think those are the three most important aspects in combat, what would you suggest? But let’s do it in a different thread.


Brad, I can make it quick. I think the most important factor in combat is the amount of damage each class does to the monster, regardless of how that damage is done (melee, ranged, spell, etc). That's the list that Matthew developed, with Monk at the top, Ranger #2, and the Wizards #3 and #4 I think, with the Druid in the middle of the pack at #7. Although I do think the Bard's power level is often underestimated, since the Bard can add +4/+4 to everyone's combats in addition to the direct damage the Bard can do. And I understand that reasonable people can disagree on that.


If you weigh healing and spell damage at 0% and melee at 100% then I see how you arrive at that conclusion
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Consistency of Focus Items 1 week 2 days ago #78

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: @MikeSteele - I agree, Monks and Rangers are OP melee classes. But nobody is arguing that focus should apply to melee damage. I’m trying to stay on topic a little bit.

And if you don’t think those are the three most important aspects in combat, what would you suggest? But let’s do it in a different thread.


Brad, I can make it quick. I think the most important factor in combat is the amount of damage each class does to the monster, regardless of how that damage is done (melee, ranged, spell, etc). That's the list that Matthew developed, with Monk at the top, Ranger #2, and the Wizards #3 and #4 I think, with the Druid in the middle of the pack at #7. Although I do think the Bard's power level is often underestimated, since the Bard can add +4/+4 to everyone's combats in addition to the direct damage the Bard can do. And I understand that reasonable people can disagree on that.


If you weigh healing and spell damage at 0% and melee at 100% then I see how you arrive at that conclusion


I don't think that list weighs spell damage at zero, I think it is the highest damage build for each character class regardless of whether it is melee, ranged, or spell damage (and it might include stuff like wand damage as well?). Wizards wouldn't be #3 and #4 if that was a melee damage list. Matthew can correct me if I'm wrong. And, for every round a Druid spends casting a healing spell, that's a round she isn't casting a damage spell or doing a melee attack. So, as the Druid would rise in the "healing" category, she'd fall further down on the damage list.

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Consistency of Focus Items 1 week 2 days ago #79

@MikeSteele - I’ve tried multiple times to end this convo on this thread, and or keep pulling me back. Please start another thread where we can discuss the new characters and how we should balance them going forward. It’s too late to do anything about the current versions.

My final word: my vote doesn’t change
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"Ceci n'est pas une pipe" - Magritte

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Consistency of Focus Items 1 week 2 days ago #80

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Your insistence that the Druid is in last place in a variety of categories where it is clearly not substantially undercuts both your argument, and my desire to attempt productive dialog on this topic with you.

You might have a point here, but "druids are last at X" is hyperbolic and does not advance your position.

Honestly, its no more insincere than saying "druids are 3rd best offensive spell caster" when 9 classes don't really do offensive spells.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Druid is last (3rd place) for spell damage behind both wizards, as no one is actually counting Cleric or Bard as spell damage dealers. Wizards don't have their legendary yet, so expect this gap to increase.


BiS Druids deal 95% of the spell damage as Wizards while also maintaining an awesome repertoire of spell healing, massive melee damage bonuses and an expanded crit range due to polymorph, and many other benefits.

That 95% spell damage presumes spell swapping all heals to offensive spells, correct? So to get to that 95%, we must presume 0 healing, and we must reduce poly effectiveness by, at minimum fitting +5 and +3 focus rings in addition to SRoEC (thus removing gloves of brute).


Why would you presume 0 healing?

Charm of spell swapping swaps a level N spell for an level N-1 or lower spell.

This means a 5th level Druid is guaranteed to have:

4x Cure minor
2x Cure light

Secondly, there are only ~10 rounds of combat in a 3 combat room dungeon, maybe as many as 12 in a 4 combat room dungeon.

A spell damaged focus druids 10-12 combat standard actions look like this:

1. Call lightning from card doubled with spell surge + Ring of Spell Storing Call Lightning
2. Call lightning from card.
3. Call lightning cast from Crown of Expertise
4. Firebolt from card
5. Firebolt from card
6. Firebolt spell swapped Protection from Energy
7. Freezing Orb from card
8. Freezing Orb from card
9. Freezing Orb from card
10. Freezing Orb spell swapped from Neutralize Poison
11. Freezing Orb spell swapped from Cure Moderate Wounds (if needed)
12. Druid is out of bullets and starts making melee attacks or other actions (maybe another spell surged call lightning with the Cleric's help).

With the BiS build I mentioned where Druids are dealing ~95% of what Wizards are dealing gives a spell healing bonus of +25, so the 4 cure minor and 2 cure light get to 170 points of healing in this spell damage focused build.

So basically a druid is 95% of wizards damage, +170 points of healing, +9 HP, +4 fort, +1 reflex, +4 will, +2 DEX, +2 STR, better weapons and armor, etc. This is why I say if Wizards are Op so are Druids.

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Consistency of Focus Items 1 week 2 days ago #81

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

The Druid is the 7th place melee fighter with an optimized poly build (which reduced effectiveness of spells as this thread points out since the +3 and +5 rings of focus don't affect poly). While I won't claim to have the most optimized builds ever in my phone, I have the Poly melee Druid behind Monk, Ranger, Barbarian, 2H Fighters, and 2H Paladin. If the monster needs to be hit by ranged and spells, the GotFF Monk is still hands down better than the poly druid (can the air elemental fly?) and Thor's means most of those classes are actually pretty good at ranged damage. The Fighters don't have their Legendary yet, so expect the melee gap to increase.


You should maybe post some builds.

2019 Barbarian BiS build, +22 hit, +41 damage.
Key items (which I believe are all usable by Fighters and Paladin, but numbers shift a bit)
*Redoubt Set (alternatively, replace redoubt helm with Crown of Might or Helm of the Boar, and tweak armor to Nether Brute Armor)
*+5 Deathcleaver
*Str neck (either stu's or valhalla)
*Charm Bracelet -> 5 charms. CoA, CoAS, Dracolitch, Greater onyx, Fiendish
*SRoEC, Ring of the Eel
*Gauntlets of Linked Fury
*Sutr's Girdle
*Shirt of Blessed Strength
*Bot4W
*Dungeonbane (Str)
*IS Onyx Cube, Infernal Fire, (Onyx Sphere if you break redoubt set)
*Ro7P

2019 Druid BiS build, +18 hit, +35 damage in poly
Key Items
*Iktomi's
*Crown of Might
*+5 Baton of Focus, Brawlers Horn
*Charm Bracelet -> 5 charms. CoA, CoAS, Greater onyx, Spell Swapping, Brooching (could become dracolitch, but then the barb has better saves)
*SRoEC, +5 ring of Focus, +3 Ring of Focus
*Gloves of Glory
*Sutr's Girdle
*Shirt of Focus
*Bot4W
*Dungeonbane (Str)
*IS Onyx Cube, IS Onyx Sphere, Infernal Fire
*Gregor's Tome of Focus
*Ro7P


Thanks for posting the builds.

If you swap around a few things in the Druid build to be more melee focused let's see what happens:

First off, why do you say the Druid needs Brooching or the Barbarian gets better saves? Base Barbarian saves are +6/+2/+2, base Druid saves are +6/+3/+8 - looks to me like it's the Barbrian who needs to drop Draco-Lich to avoid having worse saves, not the other way around.

Make these changes to your Druid build and see how it changes melee to-hit/damage:

-Brooching / + Dracolich: +0/+2 damage
- Gloves of Glory, -+3 Ring of Focus / +Mithral Gauntlets: +2/+2
- +5 Ring of Focus, +Ring of the Eeel: +0/+3
- Spell Swapping, +Fiendish Charm: +1/+1
+ Greater Mistletoe: +1 spell damage
+ Earcuff of Sonic Splendor: +1 spell damage

Now the Druid build is +21 to hit, +43 to damage in poly.

So the difference between the Barbarian and the Druid is:

1. Barbarian is +1 to hit better
2. Druid is +2 to damage better
3. Druid's damage wheel is: 6, 7, 9, 12, 15, 18 - average 11
4. Barbarian's damage wheel is: 8, 10, 10, 12, 16, 21 - average 12.833
5. Druid gets crits on 19 or 20
6. Druid gets to choose to deal one of the 4 elemental damage types on it's attacks, which is often worth +5 damage, alternatively they can choose to take -10 DR from an elemental type.

It's somewhat a matter of taste, but I'm inclined to say the Druid's result on 1-6 is better. Which means a polymorphing druid is better (or arguably better) at melee combat than a friggin' Barbarian.

So that's melee combat.

But wait - there's more!

In this build the Druid has +18 spell damage, and +22 spell healing.

So in addition to being comparable, and maybe better at melee to a BiS melee barbarian, this Druid gets to:

a. Fire off a spell surged 58 point Call Lightning once per game instead of sliding.
b. Heal allies for 212 points of damage over the dungeon. (4x cure minor, 2x cure light, 1x cure moderate, all with +22 healing)
c. Make one target immune to cold, shock, or fire for a room.
d. If desired, fire off a 38 point Call Lightning, 2x 32 point Fire Darts, 3x 29 point Freezing Orbs.

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Consistency of Focus Items 1 week 2 days ago #82

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

jedibcg wrote: Can I suppose something else to everyone? What does it matter if the Druid is or is not overpowered? This isn't a competition. If the druid does or doesn't do more damage than another class it they don't get anything special for it. The party gets damage on the monster. That party doesn't get anything over another party. Anyone has the opportunity to play the Druid (though your opportunity may be less if you are not at least 3rd level but that is a different thread).

Sure you can argue during token design that some character shouldn't get access to a token for power reasons. But if Jeff does want to make the Druid the most powerful or the least, why argue with each other about its power level? This happens again and again but it does achieve anything arguing with each other if it is or isn't overpowered.

Sorry maybe I am just grumble and will not read this topic for awhile. Someone let me know if any changes to focus are made because that is what I care about.


I don't think it matters that much, I mainly react when people try to claim that Wizards are overpowered. When this claim is made, it's usually coupled with the claim that Druids are not.

I find the "it's not a competition, it's a team game" argument uncompelling. I presume you would not like it if the Fighter legendary said: Auto-kill any monster 1/room. Why would you not like it? After all - it's not a competition, it's a team game - and you'd have an equal opportunity to play Fighter.


This just seems a bit ironic, because it seems when people argue that Wizards aren't overpowered, they usually seem to make the point that Druids are overpowered.

It's worth noting that this whole discussion was kicked off by the claim that Druids are overpowered.


I see what you mean - the ground I’m trying to defend is:


If wizards are op, so are druids.

Or, equivalently:

If druids are not op, neither are wizards.

I just reject the claim that wizards are op but druids aren’t.


Matthew, fair enough. I'll admit I'm surprised Druids can do 95% of a Wizards spell damage even with the Wizards having MEC, although I don't think that's taking into account the area attack ability.

Let's just drop the Wizard and Druid discussion and pivot to talking about how Monks and Rangers are overpowered. ;)

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Last edit: by Mike Steele.

Consistency of Focus Items 1 week 2 days ago #83

Brad Mortensen wrote: @MikeSteele - I’ve tried multiple times to end this convo on this thread, and or keep pulling me back. Please start another thread where we can discuss the new characters and how we should balance them going forward. It’s too late to do anything about the current versions.

My final word: my vote doesn’t change


Brad, I'd be thrilled to talk about the original topic without diving into a OP Druid discussion. I'll try again.

I don't think any existing Focus tokens should be modified somehow to be consistent, they are all very clear on what bonuses each provide.

I do like the idea of making future Focus more consistent, with the possible exception of a situation like the class specific baton/staff of Focus difference. My vote is for future Focus tokens to include damage and healing spell bonuses as well as polymorph bonuses.

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Consistency of Focus Items 1 week 2 days ago #84

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

The Druid is the 7th place melee fighter with an optimized poly build (which reduced effectiveness of spells as this thread points out since the +3 and +5 rings of focus don't affect poly). While I won't claim to have the most optimized builds ever in my phone, I have the Poly melee Druid behind Monk, Ranger, Barbarian, 2H Fighters, and 2H Paladin. If the monster needs to be hit by ranged and spells, the GotFF Monk is still hands down better than the poly druid (can the air elemental fly?) and Thor's means most of those classes are actually pretty good at ranged damage. The Fighters don't have their Legendary yet, so expect the melee gap to increase.


You should maybe post some builds.

2019 Barbarian BiS build, +22 hit, +41 damage.
Key items (which I believe are all usable by Fighters and Paladin, but numbers shift a bit)
*Redoubt Set (alternatively, replace redoubt helm with Crown of Might or Helm of the Boar, and tweak armor to Nether Brute Armor)
*+5 Deathcleaver
*Str neck (either stu's or valhalla)
*Charm Bracelet -> 5 charms. CoA, CoAS, Dracolitch, Greater onyx, Fiendish
*SRoEC, Ring of the Eel
*Gauntlets of Linked Fury
*Sutr's Girdle
*Shirt of Blessed Strength
*Bot4W
*Dungeonbane (Str)
*IS Onyx Cube, Infernal Fire, (Onyx Sphere if you break redoubt set)
*Ro7P

2019 Druid BiS build, +18 hit, +35 damage in poly
Key Items
*Iktomi's
*Crown of Might
*+5 Baton of Focus, Brawlers Horn
*Charm Bracelet -> 5 charms. CoA, CoAS, Greater onyx, Spell Swapping, Brooching (could become dracolitch, but then the barb has better saves)
*SRoEC, +5 ring of Focus, +3 Ring of Focus
*Gloves of Glory
*Sutr's Girdle
*Shirt of Focus
*Bot4W
*Dungeonbane (Str)
*IS Onyx Cube, IS Onyx Sphere, Infernal Fire
*Gregor's Tome of Focus
*Ro7P


Thanks for posting the builds.

If you swap around a few things in the Druid build to be more melee focused let's see what happens:

First off, why do you say the Druid needs Brooching or the Barbarian gets better saves? Base Barbarian saves are +6/+2/+2, base Druid saves are +6/+3/+8 - looks to me like it's the Barbrian who needs to drop Draco-Lich to avoid having worse saves, not the other way around.

Make these changes to your Druid build and see how it changes melee to-hit/damage:

-Brooching / + Dracolich: +0/+2 damage
- Gloves of Glory, -+3 Ring of Focus / +Mithral Gauntlets: +2/+2
- +5 Ring of Focus, +Ring of the Eeel: +0/+3
- Spell Swapping, +Fiendish Charm: +1/+1
+ Greater Mistletoe: +1 spell damage
+ Earcuff of Sonic Splendor: +1 spell damage

Now the Druid build is +21 to hit, +43 to damage in poly.

So the difference between the Barbarian and the Druid is:

1. Barbarian is +1 to hit better
2. Druid is +2 to damage better
3. Druid's damage wheel is: 6, 7, 9, 12, 15, 18 - average 11
4. Barbarian's damage wheel is: 8, 10, 10, 12, 16, 21 - average 12.833
5. Druid gets crits on 19 or 20
6. Druid gets to choose to deal one of the 4 elemental damage types on it's attacks, which is often worth +5 damage, alternatively they can choose to take -10 DR from an elemental type.

It's somewhat a matter of taste, but I'm inclined to say the Druid's result on 1-6 is better. Which means a polymorphing druid is better (or arguably better) at melee combat than a friggin' Barbarian.

So that's melee combat.

But wait - there's more!

In this build the Druid has +18 spell damage, and +22 spell healing.

So in addition to being comparable, and maybe better at melee to a BiS melee barbarian, this Druid gets to:

a. Fire off a spell surged 58 point Call Lightning once per game instead of sliding.
b. Heal allies for 212 points of damage over the dungeon. (4x cure minor, 2x cure light, 1x cure moderate, all with +22 healing)
c. Make one target immune to cold, shock, or fire for a room.
d. If desired, fire off a 38 point Call Lightning, 2x 32 point Fire Darts, 3x 29 point Freezing Orbs.


This seems a bit off by using a 2019 build, because it includes the Druid class legendary but not the Barbarians. How does it change once you add in the Barbarian 2020 class UR and Legendary?

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