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TOPIC: Suggested Errata for Charm of Quick Strike

Suggested Errata for Charm of Quick Strike 2 months 4 weeks ago #1

I noticed that the charm of quick strike has a limitation (in the td token database) of use of only once per combat. As I understand it, the maze spell, if cast on a single opponent in a combat with only 1 opponent restarts combat (thereby resetting abilities such as rage, sneak attack, etc.). It also appears to reset this token as a "new combat begins" per the clarification on the lesser maze spell.

The opportunity for abuse on this is pretty high. Try this scenario:
Party with elf wizard and +5 group initiative bonus begins combat...
Elf wizard casts for a +10 bonus to initiative before the roll
Party rolls a natural 15 (or better) on initiative and beats the monster initiative
All PCs with the charm of quick strike act followed with the remaining PCs, ending with the wizard who casts lesser maze on the monster - monster gets no action. New combat begins.

Elf wizard casts for a +10 bonus to initiative before the roll using carter's tome (to avoid using a spell slot)
Party rolls a natural 15 (or better) on initiative and beats the monster initiative
All PCs with the charm of quick strike act followed with the remaining PCs, ending with the wizard who casts lesser maze on the monster - monster gets no action. New combat begins.

Third time, the party just wins initiative but not a natural 15 or better (elf wizard uses a second spell slot casting) - wizard goes last - ring of spell storing - lesser maze, another new combat

Fourth time, same as the third but with wizard using crown of expertise and elf wizard using a charm of spell swapping

(if needed) Fifth time, same as four but cleric restoring the wizard's spell slot and elf wizard using the charm of spell swapping again.

In the first three rounds, the PCs get 40 attacks before the monster goes (the wizard using bonus actions for wands or scrolls with token help). With a +15 to initiative, this is a pretty likely scenario (even higher initiative bonuses are seen in nightmare +10 to +13 before spells isn't uncommon).

I'd suggest an errata on the charm of quick strike to be once per room rather than once per combat. It helps bring this total down a bit...

Fred

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Suggested Errata for Charm of Quick Strike 2 months 4 weeks ago #2

'Natural 15-20' means the die has to show that value, modifiers dont help trigger this effect.
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Suggested Errata for Charm of Quick Strike 2 months 4 weeks ago #3

From the Player's Handbook:

 Lesser Maze: When lesser maze is cast, the monster is teleported to a pocket dimension for one turn (in this specific case, “next turn” is defined as the monster’s next action). For creatures in the pocket dimension, time is frozen and they can take no actions—not even mental/psychic. The time-freeze effect also applies to a character if that character is engulfed/held/swallowed by the monster. On the round in which the monster is in the maze (pocket dimension), party members can take their next turn (action) to buff, heal, or whatever they like, but cannot directly affect the monster in any way. Lesser maze always takes effect at the end of the turn it is cast.

Further down...

The net result is the party essentially gets to take two turns in a row, initiative is then re-rolled, and regular combat resumes. If the players win the new initiative, they effectively get three turns in a row.

Regular combat resumes. Nothing in this states that a new combat begins. If there has been a ruling to the contrary, the PHB needs updating.

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Last edit: by isauteikisa.

Suggested Errata for Charm of Quick Strike 2 months 4 weeks ago #4

kurtreznor wrote: 'Natural 15-20' means the die has to show that value, modifiers dont help trigger this effect.


I just listed bonuses to indicate the party will probably win initiative in most cases like this (since the token indicates it has to be 15+ AND the party must win initiative - you are correct that it must be a natural roll of 15-20).

My understanding is that a new combat begins because initiative is re-rolled, not that it resumed. There was a rather long thread about this last year when the rule changes to lesser maze clarifying that it is a new combat was put out, if I remember correctly. The indicator that it was a new combat, I assume, is why abilities like rage and sneak attack reset. Druegar, could you correct me if I am wrong on that?

Fred

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Suggested Errata for Charm of Quick Strike 2 months 4 weeks ago #5

Keep in mind that most nm+ monsters will also have a big initiative bonus so going first is by ne means guaranteed.
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Suggested Errata for Charm of Quick Strike 2 months 4 weeks ago #6

Fred K wrote: My understanding is that a new combat begins because initiative is re-rolled, not that it resumed.

It depends on how you definine "resumed".

#1 For the purpose of resetting once per combat effects, it is most definitely a new "combat".

#2 Combat is "resumed" in the sense that they were in combat, they briefly stopped combating, and they started combating again. I think one could reasonably say combat was "resumed" in this scenario.

But no matter how you choose to interpret the word "resumed", see #1.
Have you looked it up in the TDb ?
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Suggested Errata for Charm of Quick Strike 2 months 4 weeks ago #7

Druegar wrote:

Fred K wrote: My understanding is that a new combat begins because initiative is re-rolled, not that it resumed.

It depends on how you definine "resumed".

#1 For the purpose of resetting once per combat effects, it is most definitely a new "combat".

#2 Combat is "resumed" in the sense that they were in combat, they briefly stopped combating, and they started combating again. I think one could reasonably say combat was "resumed" in this scenario.

But no matter how you choose to interpret the word "resumed", see #1.


So, the interpretation I gave that the Charm of Quick Strike would work again in this scenario? If so, that increases the power curve for that token. We'll see how it works out at Origins - my guess is that we may want to nerf it a little bit (along with nerfing using multiple castings of lesser maze in the same room).

Thanks!

Fred

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Suggested Errata for Charm of Quick Strike 2 months 4 weeks ago #8

Is there a "TokenDB" for spell and power errata // interactions, with references as to where // when rulings were made? If not, it seems like it would be useful (if a pain to create at this point, potentially).

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Suggested Errata for Charm of Quick Strike 2 months 4 weeks ago #9

The PHB should contain the most current versions of all the spells/powers. If you find an ability that's not up to date, please let me know.
Have you looked it up in the TDb ?
Please post TDb corrections/suggestions in this thread .
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Suggested Errata for Charm of Quick Strike 2 months 4 weeks ago #10

Fred K wrote: I noticed that the charm of quick strike has a limitation (in the td token database) of use of only once per combat. As I understand it, the maze spell, if cast on a single opponent in a combat with only 1 opponent restarts combat (thereby resetting abilities such as rage, sneak attack, etc.). It also appears to reset this token as a "new combat begins" per the clarification on the lesser maze spell.

The opportunity for abuse on this is pretty high. Try this scenario:
Party with elf wizard and +5 group initiative bonus begins combat...
Elf wizard casts for a +10 bonus to initiative before the roll
Party rolls a natural 15 (or better) on initiative and beats the monster initiative
All PCs with the charm of quick strike act followed with the remaining PCs, ending with the wizard who casts lesser maze on the monster - monster gets no action. New combat begins.

Elf wizard casts for a +10 bonus to initiative before the roll using carter's tome (to avoid using a spell slot)
Party rolls a natural 15 (or better) on initiative and beats the monster initiative
All PCs with the charm of quick strike act followed with the remaining PCs, ending with the wizard who casts lesser maze on the monster - monster gets no action. New combat begins.

Third time, the party just wins initiative but not a natural 15 or better (elf wizard uses a second spell slot casting) - wizard goes last - ring of spell storing - lesser maze, another new combat

Fourth time, same as the third but with wizard using crown of expertise and elf wizard using a charm of spell swapping

(if needed) Fifth time, same as four but cleric restoring the wizard's spell slot and elf wizard using the charm of spell swapping again.

In the first three rounds, the PCs get 40 attacks before the monster goes (the wizard using bonus actions for wands or scrolls with token help). With a +15 to initiative, this is a pretty likely scenario (even higher initiative bonuses are seen in nightmare +10 to +13 before spells isn't uncommon).

I'd suggest an errata on the charm of quick strike to be once per room rather than once per combat. It helps bring this total down a bit...

Fred


The odds or rolling two 15+ in a row is only 9%, three time in a room is 2.7%. The chance this goes off as described is even less, because the critter could win an initiative or two. It’s obviously not impossible, but I wouldn’t bank my whole strategy on such slim odds.
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Suggested Errata for Charm of Quick Strike 2 months 4 weeks ago #11

Per a discussion with Jeff, Charm of Quick Strike 's effect can only be used once per room. The TDb has been updated to reflect this.
Have you looked it up in the TDb ?
Please post TDb corrections/suggestions in this thread .
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Suggested Errata for Charm of Quick Strike 2 months 4 weeks ago #12

Druegar, I think that an explicit statement that once per combat abilities like sneak attack reset post-Lesser Maze would be helpful in the PHB. Right now, reading on page 28, it does a good job of describing general combat flow while using the maze spell, but it doesn't explicitly state the reset.

Assuming Lesser Maze survives the character rework in the next couple of years, I think that this spell interaction in particular could use noting on 5th level cards on the description // tutorial side of the card, given that effects like that aren't contained to the Wizard themselves (similar to the hints given for Restore Spell // Spell Surge on other cards).

On an unrelated note, since Wand rules have changed, p51 needs to change too (unless there's going to be a miracle reversal of that rule change :P )

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Last edit: by isauteikisa. Reason: spell -> spell interaction
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