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TOPIC: Shaman's Necklace Question

Shaman's Necklace Question 2 weeks 4 days ago #1

The shaman's necklace transmute path allows for Druids to cast spells while in polymorphed form. It excludes using scrolls.

Would a polymorphed druid using a shield of the scholar (or similar item that lets you use scrolls in times when you normally couldn't) be able to use scrolls? My guess is no because the shield just changes the action requirement from standard to bonus/free but I'm not 100% sure. It's a question of the specific versus the general rules for some items.

With the clarification that changing back requiring a standard action rather than an instantaneous action - you couldn't change back, use a scroll, then change back again in the same round. If the shield wouldn't work - are there alternate items that would work?

Fred

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Shaman's Necklace Question 2 weeks 4 days ago #2

You can't use items, so you would not be able to use Shield of the Scholar. As per the PHB:

Characters cannot use spells or any physical items
while polymorphed. They do, however, retain their
Armor Class, Hit Points, and any combat bonuses or
penalties recorded on the party card, but also
including items with conditional bonuses not
recorded on the party card

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Last edit: by Arnold.

Shaman's Necklace Question 2 weeks 4 days ago #3

Fred K wrote: The shaman's necklace transmute path allows for Druids to cast spells while in polymorphed form. It excludes using scrolls.

Would a polymorphed druid using a shield of the scholar (or similar item that lets you use scrolls in times when you normally couldn't) be able to use scrolls? My guess is no because the shield just changes the action requirement from standard to bonus/free but I'm not 100% sure. It's a question of the specific versus the general rules for some items.

With the clarification that changing back requiring a standard action rather than an instantaneous action - you couldn't change back, use a scroll, then change back again in the same round. If the shield wouldn't work - are there alternate items that would work?

Fred


Per the Player's Handbook, the transformation both ways is instantaneous.

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Shaman's Necklace Question 2 weeks 4 days ago #4

Mike Steele wrote:
Per the Player's Handbook, the transformation both ways is instantaneous.


Also, per the PHB: drinking a potion or activating a mogic item takes a standard action. So the transformation is instant, but making it happen is not.

My interpretation: polymorph takes a standard action (unless Tulz or a Necklace makes it Free Action).

Looks like going back to human doesn’t require any action, free or otherwise.
barkley.neo.rr.com -->see my trade thread HERE , my eBay store HERE or my web store HERE
"Ceci n'est pas une pipe" - Magritte

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Last edit: by Brad Mortensen.

Shaman's Necklace Question 2 weeks 4 days ago #5

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:
Per the Player's Handbook, the transformation both ways is instantaneous.


Also, per the PHB: drinking a potion or activating a mogic item takes a standard action. So the transformation is instant, but making it happen is not.

My interpretation: polymorph takes a standard action (unless Tulz or a Necklace makes it Free Action).

Looks like going back to human doesn’t require any action, free or otherwise.


That's not my interpretation. Per tokendb, it's instantaneous with the Relic to polymorph into the form.

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Shaman's Necklace Question 2 weeks 4 days ago #6

Here is the Tokendb entry for Shaman's Greater Necklace .

Here is the Tokendb entry for Shield of the Scholar .

If the transformation both ways is instantaneous, one could enter round 2 of combat as a fire elemental, instantly transform into a human again, cast a spell, then instantly transform back into a fire elemental. I think that is the INTENT of the item. I could be wrong, but that is how it reads to me. Similarly, if equipped with the Shield of the Scholar, one could transform back into human, cast a spell, use the shield as a free action, then transform back into a fire elemental.

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Last edit: by Bhorg.

Shaman's Necklace Question 2 weeks 4 days ago #7

Bhorg wrote: Here is the Tokendb entry for Shaman's Greater Necklace .

Here is the Tokendb entry for Shield of the Scholar .

If the transformation both ways is instantaneous, one could enter round 2 of combat as a fire elemental, instantly transform into a human again, cast a spell, then instantly transform back into a fire elemental. I think that is the INTENT of the item. I could be wrong, but that is how it reads to me. Similarly, if equipped with the Shield of the Scholar, one could transform back into human, cast a spell, use the shield as a free action, then transform back into a fire elemental.


I agree. You could also attack as the Fire Elemental, transform to human, use the Shield as a Free Action (or take any other Free Action), and transform back to the Fire Elemental.

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Shaman's Necklace Question 2 weeks 4 days ago #8

Mike Steele wrote:

Bhorg wrote: Here is the Tokendb entry for Shaman's Greater Necklace .

Here is the Tokendb entry for Shield of the Scholar .

If the transformation both ways is instantaneous, one could enter round 2 of combat as a fire elemental, instantly transform into a human again, cast a spell, then instantly transform back into a fire elemental. I think that is the INTENT of the item. I could be wrong, but that is how it reads to me. Similarly, if equipped with the Shield of the Scholar, one could transform back into human, cast a spell, use the shield as a free action, then transform back into a fire elemental.


I agree. You could also attack as the Fire Elemental, transform to human, use the Shield as a Free Action (or take any other Free Action), and transform back to the Fire Elemental.


I recall when instantaneous actions were brought up that several people advocated for a limit of 1 per round. As far as I can see, that suggestion was never implemented in the PHB. So, yeah, as the rules currently stand I think you are correct. Though it seems quite cheesy to me (my opinion).

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Shaman's Necklace Question 2 weeks 4 days ago #9

Fred K wrote: With the clarification that changing back requiring a standard action rather than an instantaneous action

:blink:
Please re-read my clarification.
Have you looked it up in the TDb ?
Please post TDb corrections/suggestions in this thread .
If I write something in teal, it should not be taken seriously.

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Shaman's Necklace Question 2 weeks 4 days ago #10

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Bhorg wrote: Here is the Tokendb entry for Shaman's Greater Necklace .

Here is the Tokendb entry for Shield of the Scholar .

If the transformation both ways is instantaneous, one could enter round 2 of combat as a fire elemental, instantly transform into a human again, cast a spell, then instantly transform back into a fire elemental. I think that is the INTENT of the item. I could be wrong, but that is how it reads to me. Similarly, if equipped with the Shield of the Scholar, one could transform back into human, cast a spell, use the shield as a free action, then transform back into a fire elemental.


I agree. You could also attack as the Fire Elemental, transform to human, use the Shield as a Free Action (or take any other Free Action), and transform back to the Fire Elemental.


I recall when instantaneous actions were brought up that several people advocated for a limit of 1 per round. As far as I can see, that suggestion was never implemented in the PHB. So, yeah, as the rules currently stand I think you are correct. Though it seems quite cheesy to me (my opinion).


Maybe think of it as the Relic & Legendary both allowing spells and items to be used while polymorphed. To me that seems pretty reasonable at the Relic & Legendary level.

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Shaman's Necklace Question 2 weeks 4 days ago #11

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Bhorg wrote: Here is the Tokendb entry for Shaman's Greater Necklace .

Here is the Tokendb entry for Shield of the Scholar .

If the transformation both ways is instantaneous, one could enter round 2 of combat as a fire elemental, instantly transform into a human again, cast a spell, then instantly transform back into a fire elemental. I think that is the INTENT of the item. I could be wrong, but that is how it reads to me. Similarly, if equipped with the Shield of the Scholar, one could transform back into human, cast a spell, use the shield as a free action, then transform back into a fire elemental.


I agree. You could also attack as the Fire Elemental, transform to human, use the Shield as a Free Action (or take any other Free Action), and transform back to the Fire Elemental.


I recall when instantaneous actions were brought up that several people advocated for a limit of 1 per round. As far as I can see, that suggestion was never implemented in the PHB. So, yeah, as the rules currently stand I think you are correct. Though it seems quite cheesy to me (my opinion).


Maybe think of it as the Relic & Legendary both allowing spells and items to be used while polymorphed. To me that seems pretty reasonable at the Relic & Legendary level.


I think you’re wrong.

If that was what was intended, why would Ikotomi say polymorphed players may “cast spells, not scrolls?”

The simpler rule would have been something like “do whatever you want when polymorphed.”
barkley.neo.rr.com -->see my trade thread HERE , my eBay store HERE or my web store HERE
"Ceci n'est pas une pipe" - Magritte

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Last edit: by Brad Mortensen.

Shaman's Necklace Question 2 weeks 4 days ago #12

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Bhorg wrote: Here is the Tokendb entry for Shaman's Greater Necklace .

Here is the Tokendb entry for Shield of the Scholar .

If the transformation both ways is instantaneous, one could enter round 2 of combat as a fire elemental, instantly transform into a human again, cast a spell, then instantly transform back into a fire elemental. I think that is the INTENT of the item. I could be wrong, but that is how it reads to me. Similarly, if equipped with the Shield of the Scholar, one could transform back into human, cast a spell, use the shield as a free action, then transform back into a fire elemental.


I agree. You could also attack as the Fire Elemental, transform to human, use the Shield as a Free Action (or take any other Free Action), and transform back to the Fire Elemental.


I recall when instantaneous actions were brought up that several people advocated for a limit of 1 per round. As far as I can see, that suggestion was never implemented in the PHB. So, yeah, as the rules currently stand I think you are correct. Though it seems quite cheesy to me (my opinion).


Maybe think of it as the Relic & Legendary both allowing spells and items to be used while polymorphed. To me that seems pretty reasonable at the Relic & Legendary level.


I think you’re wrong.

If that was what was intended, why would Ikotomi say polymorphed players may “cast spells, not scrolls?”


I'm not wrong, because I didn't say that was what was intended, I was saying that's another way to look at the way that it is.

This isn't brand new information. It was discussed towards the tail end of the development process that both the Relic and Legendary would allow the instantanous transmuting to/from polymorphed form, and what that allowed. It was also discussed if it undercut the Legendary too much to have the Relic be able to essentially duplicate one of the Legendary bonuses, and was decided that the Legendary still had enough advantages over the Relic.

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