TOPIC: The balance between treasure and stats

I'm not 100% sure, but I think the point of the hypothetical was to generate discussion, and to get a sense of just how much players want treasure.

The points about the treasure economy are all valid. Once treasure isnt being equipped, it loses value. Unless you could also turn it in for treaasure enhancing tokens.

If we are asking about the future of TEs in general, I agree, we need to have a hard cap. The problem is that the vets who primarily drive token sales will be very near it soon, and build diversity is something you buy to have 1 of, not necessarily 10. I am speculating, but I would bet that many of the 8K purchases included 10 ISGN somehow, if not more.

Also, I agree with Harlax. We need to continue to allow ghosting, at least up to 5 as is currently done.

Alt world, i equip:
My artifact
The class specific relic or legendary
Some way to +1 level
Maybe an UR/relic/transmute with a super-special ability (ie. Polymorph shirt before we have the class necklace, medallion of mystic mouth, ektdars tools, etc)
Lots of rares and uncommons.

I would sell off everything else and play hardcore. Trying to keep up with enough treasure draws in the current world is difficult enough, in the alt world i would just completely bail on the treasure, and as a consequence, also bail on most high end tokens. Then i only buy the few items worth it to me...luckily, with all those treasure draws happening, most things will be cheap.

Druegar wrote: Scenario: On Alternate Earth, one can equip all the same tokens we have here on Earth Prime. But in addition to those, Alternate Earth has a LOT more Treasure Enhancing tokens. So many so that one could literally equip at least a +3 TE in every single slot. These bonus TEs stack with everything, but give no other benefits.

If you had the opportunity to play TD on this Alternate Earth, where on the All Gear vs. All TEs spectrum would you stand? What non-TE gear could you not live without--if any? Would you enter a dungeon wearing nothing but TEs if it meant pulling ~100 treasure per run?

For the sake of this scenario, let's assume ghosting is not permitted and no slotless TEs exist.

I'm a bit torn on the answer. My immediate response is that I'd equip every slot with TE tokens. But, I'd also want our group to enjoy the Dungeon, and if we were 100% TE tokens, but died in the early rooms every Dungeon, that isn't maximizing enjoyment. Especially since most of my group doesn't really care about tokens and are all about the quality of the experience.

Unlike many on the forums, at current pricing my group is probably only playing each Dungeon once (some group members will only do one or two Dungeons total), so we won't have the option of playing once for XP and then more Dungeons exclusively for loot.

I'm also not sure how XP would play into the equation for us. XP is pretty important to my group, several of us are pretty high on the list, with me in the top 5 and my friend in the top 10. So ideally we'd want to be able to play Hardcore and make it to the final room.

I guess my answer would be we'd keep the minimum number of tokens to be competitive at Hardcore, and the rest TE tokens.

Another factor we'd have to consider is the quality of the treasure pulls. If everyone has the option of 100+ treasure coins per Dungeon, it seems likely that there would be far less of a percentage chance of getting something valuable per pull.

I'm thinking, to be competitive at Hardcore, we'd all want a top of the line weapon, and perhaps two or three of the best stat boosters each. We would also take every slotless token available (including Bard Instruments), since those wouldn't complete with TE tokens. We'd probably use a LOT more consumables (especially healing and resurrection, and damage boosters), since those also wouldn't compete with TE tokens, and our massive treasure pulls each Dungeon would help replenish them.

So, final answer, we'd probably outfit just 3-4 non-TE tokens each (a top of the line weapon and 2-3 stat boosters each), other than that outfit every TE token possible, and lean heavily into slotless tokens and consumables. Spellcasters would probably go with Focus tokens instead of stat boosters actually, with the weapons being Staffs or Batons of Focus.

I'd like a hard cap and some TE's in other slots as the mix and match approach would allow some diversity in builds i would hope. But that could very well end up with scenario such as Max treasure/nightmare build being locked for each class.

Like to just see a functional reprint cycle of what we have now with the gateway to CoA being opened every so many years.

I run for XP and for the fun. Loot is cool but if i didn't enjoy running loot or no loot i'd be doing far less runs than i currently do.

Druegar wrote: Scenario: On Alternate Earth, one can equip all the same tokens we have here on Earth Prime. But in addition to those, Alternate Earth has a LOT more Treasure Enhancing tokens. So many so that one could literally equip at least a +3 TE in every single slot. These bonus TEs stack with everything, but give no other benefits.

If you had the opportunity to play TD on this Alternate Earth, where on the All Gear vs. All TEs spectrum would you stand? What non-TE gear could you not live without--if any? Would you enter a dungeon wearing nothing but TEs if it meant pulling ~100 treasure per run?

For the sake of this scenario, let's assume ghosting is not permitted and no slotless TEs exist.

If one of the reasons for this question was to see whether players would self-police their own loot cap, or show any restraint, I don’t think the answer is surprising, ghosts or no.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Druegar wrote: Scenario: On Alternate Earth, one can equip all the same tokens we have here on Earth Prime. But in addition to those, Alternate Earth has a LOT more Treasure Enhancing tokens. So many so that one could literally equip at least a +3 TE in every single slot. These bonus TEs stack with everything, but give no other benefits.

If you had the opportunity to play TD on this Alternate Earth, where on the All Gear vs. All TEs spectrum would you stand? What non-TE gear could you not live without--if any? Would you enter a dungeon wearing nothing but TEs if it meant pulling ~100 treasure per run?

For the sake of this scenario, let's assume ghosting is not permitted and no slotless TEs exist.

If one of the reasons for this question was to see whether players would self-police their own loot cap, or show any restraint, I don’t think the answer is surprising, ghosts or no.

I dunno - I think it's a matter of degree. I don't believe this token would be much in demand or equipped:

UR - Slotless - Oubliette: You must spend the entire adventure blindfolded in the epilogue room seated on a folding chair. +1 treasure.

I think this one would be super in demand and equipped:

UR - Slotless - Garish Scarf of Treasure Attraction: -1 AC, +1 Treasure

There is probably a middle ground.

Matthew Hayward wrote: I dunno - I think it's a matter of degree. I don't believe this token would be much in demand or equipped:

UR - Slotless - Oubliette: You must spend the entire adventure blindfolded in the epilogue room seated on a folding chair. +1 treasure.

I don’t know if it was the blindfold or the chair, but this made me literally LOL

And I agree with you. But I think it might get some play.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I dunno - I think it's a matter of degree. I don't believe this token would be much in demand or equipped:

UR - Slotless - Oubliette: You must spend the entire adventure blindfolded in the epilogue room seated on a folding chair. +1 treasure.

I don’t know if it was the blindfold or the chair, but this made me literally LOL

And I agree with you. But I think it might get some play.

I dont know if I'd pay UR prices but I would equip the scarf, especially if scarf was a new slot. I'd also consider buying the oubliette for ghosts.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Druegar wrote: Scenario: On Alternate Earth, one can equip all the same tokens we have here on Earth Prime. But in addition to those, Alternate Earth has a LOT more Treasure Enhancing tokens. So many so that one could literally equip at least a +3 TE in every single slot. These bonus TEs stack with everything, but give no other benefits.

If you had the opportunity to play TD on this Alternate Earth, where on the All Gear vs. All TEs spectrum would you stand? What non-TE gear could you not live without--if any? Would you enter a dungeon wearing nothing but TEs if it meant pulling ~100 treasure per run?

For the sake of this scenario, let's assume ghosting is not permitted and no slotless TEs exist.

If one of the reasons for this question was to see whether players would self-police their own loot cap, or show any restraint, I don’t think the answer is surprising, ghosts or no.

I don't think it's surprising either, although I don't think it's a negative. Most players have indicated all along that they will almost always choose a Treasure Enhancing token over one that doesn't give extra treasure. Every new TE UR is an automatic purchase of 10 for my group plus lots of extras.

Mike Steele wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Druegar wrote: Scenario: On Alternate Earth, one can equip all the same tokens we have here on Earth Prime. But in addition to those, Alternate Earth has a LOT more Treasure Enhancing tokens. So many so that one could literally equip at least a +3 TE in every single slot. These bonus TEs stack with everything, but give no other benefits.

If you had the opportunity to play TD on this Alternate Earth, where on the All Gear vs. All TEs spectrum would you stand? What non-TE gear could you not live without--if any? Would you enter a dungeon wearing nothing but TEs if it meant pulling ~100 treasure per run?

For the sake of this scenario, let's assume ghosting is not permitted and no slotless TEs exist.

If one of the reasons for this question was to see whether players would self-police their own loot cap, or show any restraint, I don’t think the answer is surprising, ghosts or no.

I don't think it's surprising either, although I don't think it's a negative. Most players have indicated all along that they will almost always choose a Treasure Enhancing token over one that doesn't give extra treasure. Every new TE UR is an automatic purchase of 10 for my group plus lots of extras.

They almost feel mandatory. In a sense its like if I'm not hitting the max treasure I can I'm falling behind the folks who are.

In a more mercenary sense, getting more loot also helps justify the ticket price to my wife

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I think the point of the hypothetical was to generate discussion, and to get a sense of just how much players want treasure.

POINTS!

This thread was inspired by a recent post in another thread and by some long-term good-natured ribbing archmage78 loves to give his teammates (me included) about equipping too many TEs in place of equipment that helps in the adventure.

I swear by all that I hold dear, I had absolutely no hidden agenda when I posed the question. This thread is not some secret mission on the part of TD HQ. It was merely my academic curiosity, nothing more.

We now return you to your mashugana conspiracy theories, already in progress.

Picc wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Druegar wrote: Scenario: On Alternate Earth, one can equip all the same tokens we have here on Earth Prime. But in addition to those, Alternate Earth has a LOT more Treasure Enhancing tokens. So many so that one could literally equip at least a +3 TE in every single slot. These bonus TEs stack with everything, but give no other benefits.

If you had the opportunity to play TD on this Alternate Earth, where on the All Gear vs. All TEs spectrum would you stand? What non-TE gear could you not live without--if any? Would you enter a dungeon wearing nothing but TEs if it meant pulling ~100 treasure per run?

For the sake of this scenario, let's assume ghosting is not permitted and no slotless TEs exist.

If one of the reasons for this question was to see whether players would self-police their own loot cap, or show any restraint, I don’t think the answer is surprising, ghosts or no.

I don't think it's surprising either, although I don't think it's a negative. Most players have indicated all along that they will almost always choose a Treasure Enhancing token over one that doesn't give extra treasure. Every new TE UR is an automatic purchase of 10 for my group plus lots of extras.

They almost feel mandatory. In a sense its like if I'm not hitting the max treasure I can I'm falling behind the folks who are.

In a more mercenary sense, getting more loot also helps justify the ticket price to my wife

I think one of the reasons TE's feel mandatory is because you can still equip all of them and waltz through Epic/Nightmare. Toughen up the dungeons enough and they may get less love.