TOPIC: Elemental Eldritch Set with Lenses of Divine Sight

Mike Steele wrote: the guidance from Jeff seems to be focused on the impact on the 1 point healing spell, but the change you implemented was a global change affecting all healing spells. Was that an error?

I was merely using the example George used. This ruling affects all levels of healing spells.

Ok wow, guess a fireball with this ring only gets +5 damage to one creature....

Relsa’s Ring of Supreme Focus

Damage-dealing spells cast by the wearer deal +5 Damage. Healing spells cast by the wearer heal +5 HP. It has no effect on spells emanating from items, scrolls, or spells cast by the wearer which neither reduce nor restore HP.

If a spell under the influence of Relsa’s Ring of Supreme Focus can affect more than one target, the caster gets a total of 5 extra points of healing/damage from the ring, not +5 points per target. The caster chooses the recipient(s) of the extra points and may allocate them as s/he sees fit among the eligible recipients.

Incognito wrote: the TokenDB for the Lenses still says "Focus Ring Note: If the source spell is modified by a Focus ring–plus X to the HP healed–the duplicate receives the full plus X bonus as well."

Will this be changed as well?

Focus ring bonuses still affect both instances of a healing spell duplicated by LoDS .

Comparatively speaking, this rule change isn't really all that bad compared to others, such as:

WORST CHANGES

1. Reversing the HoP reprint policy with the CoA

2. Disallowing equipment swapping in the dungeon (which rendered a lot of cornercase UR's suddenly obsolete. At the time, the Ring of Focus went from "must have" to "not worth it.").

3. Gloves of the Cabal completely changing their functionality between the token design process and tokens being released.

*** This current change

4. The "healing pool" concept hosing the Ring of Focus.

5. The Shield of the Scholar change (which I think might have be re-reversed).

LESS WORSE CHANGES

Alvin Oliver wrote: Ok wow, guess a fireball with this ring only gets +5 damage to one creature....

Relsa’s Ring of Supreme Focus

Damage-dealing spells cast by the wearer deal +5 Damage. Healing spells cast by the wearer heal +5 HP. It has no effect on spells emanating from items, scrolls, or spells cast by the wearer which neither reduce nor restore HP.

If a spell under the influence of Relsa’s Ring of Supreme Focus can affect more than one target, the caster gets a total of 5 extra points of healing/damage from the ring, not +5 points per target. The caster chooses the recipient(s) of the extra points and may allocate them as s/he sees fit among the eligible recipients.

*blinks*

What?

Is this new or was I completely blind when I looked?

*mumbles* Crap, there go ALL of my calculations... *grumble*

Folks,
It looks like people are getting a bit confused. Please go back and read the entire thread. There are no comments about the Ring of Focus being nerfed only the Elemental Eldritch Set bonus. Druegar specifically mentions the ring of focus effecting each heal at full value. The Elemental set bonus is being reduced a little.

Without the reduction, a druid with a Sacred Vestament, a +3 Focus ring, and the Eldritch Set can heal for 270 HP (or 332 HP with spell surge). After the change, the same druid will still be able to heal 200 HP (or 252 HP with spell surge).

Incognito wrote: Comparatively speaking, this rule change isn't really all that bad compared to others, such as:

WORST CHANGES

1. Reversing the HoP reprint policy with the CoA

2. Disallowing equipment swapping in the dungeon (which rendered a lot of cornercase UR's suddenly obsolete. At the time, the Ring of Focus went from "must have" to "not worth it.").

3. Gloves of the Cabal completely changing their functionality between the token design process and tokens being released.

*** This current change

4. The "healing pool" concept hosing the Ring of Focus.

5. The Shield of the Scholar change (which I think might have be re-reversed).

LESS WORSE CHANGES

That of course is a subjective list. I'd order them differently. And, even with your numbering - being #3.5 on the "worst changes ever" seems like pretty good justification to reverse the rules change.

While I definitely think the Eldritch set abilities need to be changed eventually, I do not think the current revision goes far enough nor is the timing appropriate.

I personally think it would be better to delay the revision until next year, when the new Eldritch boots are available.

Since the Eldritch set came out, I have argued that it was extremely overpowered:

1. The +10 HP heals (working on 0-level spells) has always been excessively strong. And that was the case well before the Lenses of Divine Sight entered the picture.

2. Completely bypassing Damage Reduction and Spell Resistance is also IMHO a mistake. Probably should have been something like bypasses the first 10 points of damage reduction and -50% Spell Resistance. Heck, even -100% Spell Resistance is preferable.

3. While the overpowered nature of the Eldritch set was initially contained by the scarcity of the RoSP, that will no longer be the case next year with the Boots. As the Boots (and eventually the Cavadar) items are added the two-piece set will become increasingly common.

4. Not to mention that with the current bar set with the 2-piece Eldritch, imagine what the 3-piece is going to have to look like in comparison.



So I am definitely in favor of the 2-piece set getting revamped next year so that they have more flexibility to develop a strong but balanced 3-piece set. Furthermore, if this results in a desirable 3-piece set power, then the Supreme Ring and the RoSP would still retain value (even if the 2-piece set was toned down).

Incognito wrote: While I definitely think the Eldritch set abilities need to be changed eventually, I do not think the current revision goes far enough nor is the timing appropriate.

I personally think it would be better to delay the revision until next year, when the new Eldritch boots are available.

Since the Eldritch set came out, I have argued that it was extremely overpowered:

1. The +10 HP heals (working on 0-level spells) has always been excessively strong. And that was the case well before the Lenses of Divine Sight entered the picture.

2. Completely bypassing Damage Reduction and Spell Resistance is also IMHO a mistake. Probably should have been something like bypasses the first 10 points of damage reduction and -50% Spell Resistance. Heck, even -100% Spell Resistance is preferable.

3. While the overpowered nature of the Eldritch set was initially contained by the scarcity of the RoSP, that will no longer be the case next year with the Boots. As the Boots (and eventually the Cavadar) items are added the two-piece set will become increasingly common.

4. Not to mention that with the current bar set with the 2-piece Eldritch, imagine what the 3-piece is going to have to look like in comparison.



So I am definitely in favor of the 2-piece set getting revamped next year so that they have more flexibility to develop a strong but balanced 3-piece set. Furthermore, if this results in a desirable 3-piece set power, then the Supreme Ring and the RoSP would still retain value (even if the 2-piece set was toned down).

And I think the point a lot of people have made is that these discussions have been had, the powers have been set, and it's not appropriate to change the effects for the 2 item set now or in the future. Both the 2 Item Set ability and the interaction with the Lenses of Divine Sight were among the most discussed topics, particularly with regards to the 1 point heal. We are at the point where they should be set and not continually re-looked at for modification. I'm not even sure that the 10 point heal is the most powerful ability of the two item set - the ability for spells to completely bypass spell resistance seems much more likely to "break the game" than the healing bonus.

And to be honest, it seems a bit ironic that there is this effort to further downgrade healing, right after a token generation cycle where damage spells by the Wizard got a huge boost with the Staff, that wasn't allowed to also affect healing. Even with the +10 healing that combines with the Lenses of Divine Sight, I'd argue that it still hasn't quite caught up with the Wizard's damage spells, especially since damage to the monster is much more "game breaking" than character healing.

Mike Steele wrote: And I think the point a lot of people have made is that these discussions have been had, the powers have been set, and it's not appropriate to change the effects for the 2 item set now or in the future. Both the 2 Item Set ability and the interaction with the Lenses of Divine Sight were among the most discussed topics, particularly with regards to the 1 point heal. We are at the point where they should be set and not continually re-looked at for modification.

Yet the HoP issue was something that was repeatedly brought up every several years. Until finally (this past year) Jeff decided to finally reverse course.

And while there was heated discussion about that (particularly from a few forumites), I find it amusing that this apparent Eldritch set change (which is relatively minor in that it mainly affects the Bard's Soothing Wounds and the use of a specific UR Lenses for two classes) is getting far more complaints and grumblings than I recall reading about during the Charm of Avarice discussion!

But considering that the ship has sailed on the HoP reprint issue, I am surprised why other people are surprised that lesser reversals may also happen.

And to be honest, it seems a bit ironic that there is this effort to further downgrade healing, right after a token generation cycle where damage spells by the Wizard got a huge boost with the Staff, that wasn't allowed to also affect healing. Even with the +10 healing that combines with the Lenses of Divine Sight, I'd argue that it still hasn't quite caught up with the Wizard's damage spells, especially since damage to the monster is much more "game breaking" than character healing.

Eh, do we really need to bring up the can of worms that is the Transmuted Staff all over again?

Maybe you should have a nice long chat with Arcanist.

(While I did not think it would have been a big deal to allow Clerics and Druids to use the Transmuted staff, I also did not mind letting the Wizards have their own toy.)

Also, academically speaking, I would argue that you are wrong that more damage to the monster is more "game breaking" than character healing. I would say the opposite - character healing is more "game breaking" than combat damage.

In a typical dungeon, you will only have 2 to 4 rooms with combat where damage to monsters is relevant. Character healing is something that will apply to ALL rooms. It is easier to adapt to more combat damage by tweaking just the combat rooms. But if character healing is out of whack, then all rooms (combat and puzzle) would need to be adjusted.

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Adeya wrote: I'm in agreement with Mike here. I'm not happy with this change. It devalues both tokens in the Eldtrich set. The extra ten points was a great way to balance out the healing in the party when there are one or two wizards constantly cutting themselves. If there is still too much healing going around then the Nightmare monsters need to do more damage. This can be accomplished through multi-attacks, harder hits, and/or damage auras (all simple changes to make for the experienced DMs in Grind). Errata to token powers ought to only be done if there is a serious problem with how something works, and I didn't think that was the case here.

Exactly. This isn't a case where there is some unforeseen token interaction. The interaction between the lenses and the Eldritch set was completely understood and discussed in depth when Jeff made his ruling on how it worked. It is unnecessary and inappropriate to change it now. Jeff, I hope you will negate this significant change and leave the rules as is.

I disagree with the unnecessary part but I do agree that changing it at this point is 100% inappropriate.

I would rather see the bonus from the set scaled back versus having the combats adjusted up to accommodate for it. There is a high disparity of token access at higher levels, allowing the gap to push farther makes it harder to those without these levels of tokens to compete and that's not good for the long term survival of the game.

Scaling the Eldritch Set bonus back at this point is just as bad. It has been established for quite awhile now, and people spent quite a bit of money to procure them based on the current powers. I clearly remember the discussion specifically in regards to the one point healing spells and the 10 point Eldritch bonus, with some people pushing to exempt the minor healing spell from the Eldritch Set bonus, and Jeff chose to leave the bonus as it was (10 points affecting all spells including the one point healing spell.

Both the Eldritch Set Bonus and the interaction with the Lenses of Divine Sight been discussed and ruled on in the past, with all the pros and cons discussed in depth, and those rulings should remain in place.

I'm pretty disappointed, with all the rampant power growth that has been happening, especially in regards to combat bonuses for both melee/ranged and spells, that this is the item that suddenly seems to be "game breaking". I think any problems that this healing might cause pale next to the balance problems caused by the super-high combat bonuses that are available. And personally, given the massive increases in character max hit points, combat bonuses, and monster stats, this amount of healing is pretty in-scale with those increases. Characters can heal 10 points with healing potions now, this isn't that much more than that.

I learn a lot of stuff that go on with True Dungeon as well of each of the dynamic and position that is involve with the inner working of functionality. It seem that people from the forum overlook the facts of the normal and tradition way of handling issue of whether it the gaming mechanic or specific definition function of token/s is constant problematic by simple format that is base of create 3-years story arch, then unrelated with the create of at least 30 Ultra-rare with 20 being the finalist, then with the addition more to come into revel Relic and Legendary. Which is carry through the ideal at the times, but the creative process is always changing due to the unforeseen future event that isn't align with the creative process of the tokens especially with the outdate past and recent development of making these tokens to fit into the one part of the story arch at the times. This is in-turn indifferent between Jeff Martin as the developer/owner/DM/create guideline from the consumers/gamers/hardcore and newbie players/traders to even volunteers. But the bottom-line is that we are all human beings and with that it's not perfect, but actually a working process as to be a part of the creative process as shown in this forum. I did more than my share of contribute to this True Dungeon as well a few other in hope to make TD better than it should be. To work under limited resource is very challenging, where there is so many functionality to TD within itself. To combine that with our life especially the trial of life hood in America's issue has be harder than expect. Believe me when I said that I gave more than ideas to share with Jeff and many of them were dismiss. Only Jeff will know the reasons if it is practical under certain conditions and he doesn't have to explain to me because I trust him to make it right overall. There were two example that I know that Jeff's decision indirectly affect me as player/trader, but I kept going with it because there is more than plenty of times that Jeff did me a favor and then some. If you remember Orb of Might ruling change and the year where treasure box started pull out UR, Relic. As soon as George's posted the issue the token/s, I knew for a facts that it was going start a debate automatic like clockwork because Jeff work habit hasn't broke it tradition pattern and then to relate it to the comparisons as he has before with relate issue. The Orb of Might has taken a longer than this issue because at the times of the Orb, he had dual duty for TD and Dwarven Forge and little times to deal with it and also with this issue is shorter is without Dwarven Forge. But the same result as expect into the same debate different ruling apply. Beside I'm surprise with all intention of these of creative difference that most of the stuff are still applicable from yesterday process as it is for future events that with stood the test of times. Don’t forgot that this was and still is an innovator and one of kind gamer experience into D & D model around and yet the most attract to bring back fan year in and year out for about 12 years. Which in itself is a milestone achievement!

-Eversuede-

Incognito wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: And I think the point a lot of people have made is that these discussions have been had, the powers have been set, and it's not appropriate to change the effects for the 2 item set now or in the future. Both the 2 Item Set ability and the interaction with the Lenses of Divine Sight were among the most discussed topics, particularly with regards to the 1 point heal. We are at the point where they should be set and not continually re-looked at for modification.

Yet the HoP issue was something that was repeatedly brought up every several years. Until finally (this past year) Jeff decided to finally reverse course.

And while there was heated discussion about that (particularly from a few forumites), I find it amusing that this apparent Eldritch set change (which is relatively minor in that it mainly affects the Bard's Soothing Wounds and the use of a specific UR Lenses for two classes) is getting far more complaints and grumblings than I recall reading about during the Charm of Avarice discussion!

But considering that the ship has sailed on the HoP reprint issue, I am surprised why other people are surprised that lesser reversals may also happen.

And to be honest, it seems a bit ironic that there is this effort to further downgrade healing, right after a token generation cycle where damage spells by the Wizard got a huge boost with the Staff, that wasn't allowed to also affect healing. Even with the +10 healing that combines with the Lenses of Divine Sight, I'd argue that it still hasn't quite caught up with the Wizard's damage spells, especially since damage to the monster is much more "game breaking" than character healing.

Eh, do we really need to bring up the can of worms that is the Transmuted Staff all over again?

Maybe you should have a nice long chat with Arcanist.

(While I did not think it would have been a big deal to allow Clerics and Druids to use the Transmuted staff, I also did not mind letting the Wizards have their own toy.)

Also, academically speaking, I would argue that you are wrong that more damage to the monster is more "game breaking" than character healing. I would say the opposite - character healing is more "game breaking" than combat damage.

In a typical dungeon, you will only have 2 to 4 rooms with combat where damage to monsters is relevant. Character healing is something that will apply to ALL rooms. It is easier to adapt to more combat damage by tweaking just the combat rooms. But if character healing is out of whack, then all rooms (combat and puzzle) would need to be adjusted.

That is the difference, in that I mentioned the Staff as a point of reference, but I'm not asking Jeff to revisit it to change the rules on it, as some are now doing to the Eldritch Set / Lenses of Divine Sight. The staff also had extensive discussions regarding it, and while I don't agree with the outcome, I'm not going to try to get it changed now that it is finalized.

And, if this change is so minor as you say, why is there any need to make it at all. Much better to leave it as is, which is how it was described as being for years.