TOPIC: Elemental Eldritch Set with Lenses of Divine Sight

At WYC, I got into a discussion with some of the other players on the effectiveness of the combination of an Elemental Eldritch Set with the Lenses of Divine Sight.

Links to the Token DB:
tokendb.com/token/lenses-of-divine-sight/
tokendb.com/token/rod-of-seven-parts/

When casting a Cure Minor wounds (Heals 1 point of damage), I was claiming that I should heal two players for 14 points each. 1 point for the spell, 3 points for the greater ring of focus and 10 points for the Elemental Eldritch Set bonus.

People were arguing that the Elemental Eldritch Set had errata saying the 10 point healing on multi-target spells was divided among all targets. While I agree such errata exists, I don't believe that it applies to this case.

The text of the DB entry for the Lenses of Divine sight says "All bonuses applied to the source spell are applied to the duplicate spell." and "Multi-Target Note: A source spell that affects multiple targets cannot be duplicated." and "The player chooses when to use the effect".

These three statement seem to argue that the order of effect is: 1. The player casts the spell at the first target with full effectiveness. 2. The player then chooses to cast a duplicate spell. 3. The duplicate spell is cast with all bonuses.

The comment about the Lenses of Divine Sight not affecting Multi-targeted spells seems to clarify that the spell nor the duplicate of the spell are considered multi-target and thus the healing is not split.

If there is an old thread, which conflicts with my understanding, I would appreciate a link. I looked but couldn't find one.

George, I'm sure you are correct. You're casting a single target spell and the lenses is duplicating it, including bonuses, resulting in two single target spells and not a multi-target spell. The errata is for the Bard spell of mass heal, so that everyone doesn't get plus 10 healing. And like you said, the lenses can't duplicate the spell of mass heal.

per Jeff:
Cure Minor Wounds + Lenses of Divine Sight + Ring of Greater Focus + Eldritch healing bonus = two targets each heal 14 HP.

Cure Minor Wounds + Lenses of Divine Sight + Ring of Greater Focus + Eldritch healing bonus = two targets each heal 4 HP, plus a pool of 10 HP to be divided among the two targets.

Each Elemental Eldritch set item in the TDb has been updated to reflect this. Future versions of the various guides shall reflect this as well.

Jeff asked me to add that the intent of the Eldritch bonus was to not to break the game by giving overpowering healing abilities to low-level spells. Jeff feels it is necessary to adjust, clarify, or even change rules if needed to ensure the overall health of the game. I concur with that sentiment and suspect most players do too.

Great question George! Please enjoy a glass of milk.
[img size=200,200] www.dantasyland.com/td/FrostyGlassofMilk.png [/img]

This is how I've done it, too.
I thought the Lenses duplicated the 11 pt spell, for a total of 22 pets of healing.

Contrast with the Bard's Sooth Wounds, which is a multi-target spell, which would heal everyone 3 pts, and then have an extra 10 pts to share among the targets.

The current write-up for the Divine Lenses in the token database suggests I've been doing it wrong, tho.

(Gratuitous plug for tokendb... And I'd include the direct link to the Lenses, but I'm on mobile at the moment. Edit - never mind, others already got it! Thx George.... And now Druegar as well.)


Druegar, were you changing the entry just now? .... Was the doubling-Eldritch-lenses thing not spelled out explicitly til just now?

Raven wrote: Druegar, were you changing the entry just now?

yes

Raven wrote: Was the doubling-Eldritch-lenses thing not spelled out explicitly til just now?

It previously stated multi-target spells got the pool, not +10 to all, but did not specifically mention the lenses. What just got added was the part about it getting a pool whether the spell was originally single-target and then became multi-target.
(I also updated some references to "upcoming" 2015 tokens, but that's not germane to this discussion.)

So if you recently viewed those items in the TDb, clear your cache and reload the page.

I was also reading it the way George did, thinking a duplicated spell was two single-target spells, not one multi-target spell. But I'll remember for Gencon.

Not to be a pain, but how does this affect Carter's, if I use it to recast a heal spell? Is it still just a 10-point pool, or 20? (We've ruled out 40).

Druegar wrote: per Jeff:
Cure Minor Wounds + Lenses of Divine Sight + Ring of Greater Focus + Eldritch healing bonus = two targets each heal 4 HP, plus a pool of 10 HP to be divided among the two targets.

Each Elemental Eldritch set item in the TDb has been updated to reflect this. Future versions of the various guides shall reflect this as well.

Jeff asked me to add that the intent of the Eldritch bonus was to not to break the game by giving overpowering healing abilities to low-level spells. Jeff feels it is necessary to adjust, clarify, or even change rules if needed to ensure the overall health of the game. I concur with that sentiment and suspect most players do too.

Great question George! Please enjoy a glass of milk.
[img size=200,200] www.dantasyland.com/td/FrostyGlassofMilk.png [/img]

Well, I for one don't agree with this rule change at this late date. Plus, the way it is written, the modified ruling doesn't just affect 1 point healing spells, it affects all healing spells.

Given the immense amount of damage that can now be dealt by both spells and combat, the healing rules as previously written seem less likely to "break the game" than damage enhancing tokens can.

For balance purposes, as a player and a DM, I am glad that the Eldritch healing bonus is no longer doubled by the Lenses of Divine Sight.

I remember that when the final tokens came out, I was surprised and disappointed to see the "(with bonuses)" clause.

So I am glad that Jeff has decided to reverse this imbalanced combo.

However, the TokenDB for the Lenses still says "Focus Ring Note: If the source spell is modified by a Focus ring–plus X to the HP healed–the duplicate receives the full plus X bonus as well."

Will this be changed as well? Or does Jeff's ruling only apply to the Eldritch set bonus? If so, then it seems a bit inconsistent to restrict the Eldritch bonus but not any of the other bonuses.

I find it very frustrating that this issue can be discussed in depth when the token was generated, with all of the implications fully understood, and having Jeff issue a ruling based on those discussions, and then for the ruling to be later overturned in a matter of hours without any opportunity for further discussion.

I disagree that this amount of healing is unbalancing - it is in line or below the amount of damage possible by a single character in this age of increasing power via tokens.

It also once again demonstrates that there is little stability to the game, rules can be changed overnight based on complaints by one or more people well after the fact of the rules being issued after significant discussion and deliberation.

I had acquired the lenses for the Cleric and used the eldritch set on the Cleric due to the way the rules were (shown/taught to me by Carter at last years WYC). With this huge rule change the Cleric may start collecting dust.

Mike Steele wrote: I find it very frustrating that this issue can be discussed in depth when the token was generated, with all of the implications fully understood, and having Jeff issue a ruling based on those discussions, and then for the ruling to be later overturned in a matter of hours without any opportunity for further discussion.

It also once again demonstrates that there is little stability to the game, rules can be changed overnight based on complaints by one or more people well after the fact of the rules being issued after significant discussion and deliberation.

Well, this still pales in comparison to the whole HoP / Charm of Avarice situation....

I disagree that this amount of healing is unbalancing - it is in line or below the amount of damage possible by a single character in this age of increasing power via tokens.

Uh, you do know that player HP has never been scaled appropriately to monster HP and player damage output?

Which is why PvP has so many hurdles, and why the Golden Ticket PvP event (from the worst Golden Ticket year ever) was unbalanced with so many one-hit kills.

Donald Rients wrote: I had acquired the lenses for the Cleric and used the eldritch set on the Cleric due to the way the rules were (shown/taught to me by Carter at last years WYC). With this huge rule change the Cleric may start collecting dust.

Uh, I think the Cleric will still continue to be very strong.

Eldritch set is already insanely good for the Cleric. The extra healing from the Lenses will still be useful, even if it is not as ridiculously high as before. Not to mention Charm of Spell Swapping is actually good now due to the Eldritch set.

I'm in agreement with Mike here. I'm not happy with this change. It devalues both tokens in the Eldtrich set. The extra ten points was a great way to balance out the healing in the party when there are one or two wizards constantly cutting themselves. If there is still too much healing going around then the Nightmare monsters need to do more damage. This can be accomplished through multi-attacks, harder hits, and/or damage auras (all simple changes to make for the experienced DMs in Grind). Errata to token powers ought to only be done if there is a serious problem with how something works, and I didn't think that was the case here.