TOPIC: New Token Valuation

So as the storm of new trading starts, I figure people will be arguing back and forth in the longstanding market square tradition of haggling. What _IS_ one of the new tokens really worth? Without any trades logged there are no token guide prices. With no priceguide as a starting point, I figure there could be quite a...umm, spirited conversation about what any particular new item is worth. I figured that I would take a hand at what I think the value is or should be, if welcome everyone to post their own to see if we get a general consensus. In the interest of full disclosure, the tokens of the new set I have to trade and the ones I need are in the other "tokens arrived" thread in case you feel that my judgement is biased anywhere.<br /><br />Greens:<br /><br />Minor Rumor: A lot of the value of the rumor tokens have been whether or not there are false rumors in the batch. I know a lot of people were pissing when it was revealed that no only were there just non-applicable rumors, but that some of them directly counseled doing what you shoudl not do. I know, I know...they're rumors, not holy writ. The fact that it's a complete shot in the dark whether the rumor is any good means that the only real value to this thing is as a lark or for the collector trying to finish a set. Value: 35<br /><br />Scroll of Remove Curse: Well, I'm sure that I can't be the only one pleased by the downgrade of this token and it's useless cousin. Okay, fine, for the nitpickers out there, it's not completely useless. Just because I've never seen anyone use it to good effect dosen't mean that theoretically there won't be some sort of giant curse and disease throwing monster in the dungeon this year and the only way to survive is with these two tokens. Suffice to say, I'm not holding my breath. The main value of these tokens IMO were their relative rarity. That removed they're basically even less useful than other rare scrolls. Value: 40<br /><br />Scroll of Remove Disease: Value: 25<br /><br />Scroll of Stone to Flesh: Despite the speculation of a medusa or baslisk or gorgon or other petrification monster, this scroll falls into the category of 'not likely but if you got screwed you'd surely want one'. Pretty much just like the above two in the cases of curses and diseases but a weee bit more serious. You can walk around with a good curse raging and the pox to boot...it'd be hard to expect people to drag your statue around however. So basically, one for the collection on the offchance. Toss the rest. Value: 45<br /><br />Scroll of Mirror Image: If this token works pretty much like the spell, I likes it. Basically it allows the wizard to enter combat (maybe tossing the weighted net or something or even whacking with his staff) and not face dire chances for death and dismemberment, at least on a temporary basis. This is of course for mages that aren't already armored out the wazoo with other things. The best comparrison for this token's value is the VR mage armor which is far more useful, lasting the entire dungeon and currently valued at 80 (which I think is low btw). It's not a bad idea to have a few of these as a mage in the offchanc that your party is whittled down and another body is needed to suck up blows (like with that 6-armed whatchamacallit) or just to get in there and burning hands. Value: 55<br /><br />Scroll of Mage Hand: As per the spell, this is going to be a very useful utility token. It's definitely not necessary but everyone can think of a situation in the dungeon when it might be better to have a spectral force pull a lever or touch some oddity rather than going in there and laying a hand on it. This will be the token for groups that are ulta-meticulous and plan. Frankly, oftentimes I prefer to bash things but even I learn caution occassionally. Bottom line, I likes it. Value: 50<br /><br />Reds:<br /><br />Scroll of Blink: Frankly, I'm not exactly sure what good this token is with mirror image also around since it is also self only. As per the spell description you basically get the sustained effect of a cloak of displacement (50% miss rate) while it is active. With mirror image though, you get _better_ than a 50% miss rate which diminishes as images are hit. The only advantage to blink is the ability move through solid objects, which I'm almost sure will be neutered somewhat. Can't have people choosing to walk through doors instead of solving the puzzle to get through it, right? Anyway, most of the value from this seems to come from it being a VR. Value: 75<br /><br />Ring of Frost Resistance: So, resistance to one element where it's only half damage. I dunno about these two. Frankly, I'd much prefer to have a ring of feather fall. I've noticed so far that people tend to tumble down things more often than they take massive heat or cold damage in general. Pits and bottomless ledges are everyone. Still, it's not a bad idea if you have a ring slot open. Maybe I'm also biased but I generally take fire threats a lot more seriously than cold threats. Has there ever even been magical cold damage dealt in the dungeon? Value: 200<br /><br />Ring of Fire Resistance: Value: 225<br /><br />+1 Longbow: <sigh> It's the neverending quest to make ranged weapons even slightly worth it so that people will give them a whirl. I just don't know if that's possible with the throwing mechanic. Assuming that you can't control how the darn token will flip, you're at a 50% miss rate even before we see where the token has landed. Overall, the disadvantage of hurling anything at range is huge. This is despite the fact that we continually see tokens that hype it and trying to close the gap. By this point with the masterwork bolts/arrows and the bracers of archery, you're at a +3 damage if you can land it compared to equivalent melee weapon. I just dunno. At +4 maybe, but it seems the gulf is still too wide. There's a reason why our poor heavy repeating crossbow has been languishing at the bottom of the perm VR item valuations for so long. Basically at this point, they're equivalent (the longbow +1 and the heavy repeating xbow). Both shoot every round and both have an average damage rating of 5.5 points per hit. The only advantage the longbow +1 has is initial novelty. Value: 135<br /><br />Elven Chain: This IMO is the 'chase rare' of the new tokens. No downside and plenty of up. We know for a fact that thieves can wear this from what has been posted, and if rangers can as well both of them just picked up a +2 to AC which we all know would be invaluable for those two classes who tend to be underarmored. Everyone will want one of these, much like everyone wants a platemail. The value on this will fluxuate so it's hard to judge and will depend on whether it is for rogues only. For rogues only: Value: 275; for rangers and rogues: Value: 400<br /><br />Major Rumor: Again, not a huge fan of rumors. They tend to be just a shot in the dark. If they were ruled to all be 'useful' in at least some minor way the valuation would change, but I'm assuming they're going to be more or less the same as they were last year. A lot of general gobbily gook with the occassional useful piece of info. Value: 70

I think that right now, it is very hard to gauge what the true value of tokens will be. There will be an initial novelty value for all these items that will artificially inflate their values, to later decrease to their "truer" values after the market has been flooded with the 60k spider tokens. I agree that the major rumor is likely to be terrible, but some holders could be lucky and they could make it very worthwhile. For the elven chain, as only one or two characters will benefit from it, I doubt that it will be valued as high as Henwy thinks it will. Most players try to maximize one character type, and, unless you are a rogue or possibly a ranger, you wouldn't really want the elven chain. <br /><br />The scroll of mage hand, on the other hand, seems like it should be worth more than 50, as this is something that might be able to create a solution to a puzzle. I bet there will be a puzzle that can be avoided with this scroll in nearly every dungeon.

And let's not forget - the guide will dictate a certain value of the items...as the rules fo exactly how a token can be used is crucial in the value of said token.<br /><br />Initially, I think Henwy is doing a great job of discussing and tagging a value on them.<br /><br />

Rangers CAN wear the Elven chain and I think the Blink is going to work more like a L.O.S. Teleport where you toss the token and move to where it lands.  I could be wrong about the blink though.  :happy6:

Now that would be fun...blink to a ledge...or to the other side of a chasm...then you could catch a grapple hook on a rope...COOL

Wow, if that's how it is going to be able to used, then it has huge utility value, potentially allowing for a way to skip a puzzle if unable to solve it.

Not if it's going by dnd rules. Blink changed from 2nd edition to 3rd. It also never really worked the way you're thinking. Blink in 2nd edition was random directional shifts. You couldn't control what direction you went in (unless you were a blink dog). In third edition, it means you're blinking in and out in one place. Meaning you could theoretcially walk through solid matter, with a chance of becoming coporeal in the middle of it.

<br />I think that right now, it is very hard to gauge what the true value of tokens will be. There will be an initial novelty value for all these items that will artificially inflate their values, to later decrease to their "truer" values after the market has been flooded with the 60k spider tokens. I agree that the major rumor is likely to be terrible, but some holders could be lucky and they could make it very worthwhile. For the elven chain, as only one or two characters will benefit from it, I doubt that it will be valued as high as Henwy thinks it will. Most players try to maximize one character type, and, unless you are a rogue or possibly a ranger, you wouldn't really want the elven chain. <br />

<br />In general, a boost is in there for the novelty value, though a small one. Look at the longbow +1 vs heavy repeating crossbow for instance. <br /><br />Also, I think you're wrong about the elven chain. Compare it to the platemail which gives 3 characters +1 more AC than they would have with the next inferior armor of half-plate. With the price of halfplate less than 100GP, basically you're paying a 400+ premium with platemail to get that extra armor point. With elven chain, it's for 2 characters and you're paying less of a premium with my prices for a +2 AC gain. If anything, I've probaly underestimated the value of it.<br /><br />Though, if anyone is willling to sell theirs at prices below what I've listed, drop me a PM .

On second thought maybe your right Henwy about the elven chain....we'll see

  I think you're probably right about your valuation for elven chain being too low... think about it: on a ranger he can now have (because he gets +1 dex that the fighter doesn't) an AC just 2 points lower than a fighter with a great weapon, but he gets to fight with 2 weapons... it (a) makes the ranger class a lot more attractive, and (b) will be highly sought after by both rangers, thieves, and bards that like to dress sharply  ;/... <br /><br />  Just looking how just a rare like chainmail is elevated because it's the top armor for 1 class, I bet you're going to see elven chain close in on the full plate cost level...

That is called the BLING factor George...

<br />(a) makes the ranger class a lot more attractive, and (b) will be highly sought after by both rangers, thieves, and bards that like to dress sharply <br />

<br />I don't think it makes rangers much more attractive because in general, rangers suck so it would take a lot more attraction than 2 more points of armor to help them out IMO. Most people aren't ambidex enough to slide two tokens at once and hit well. In fact, from what I've seen, people tend to do worse sliding 2 tokens at the same time than just sliding 1. They're more likely to wiff with both than they ever would with just throwing one in their main hand. That's my personal experience and also what I've heard from others who have played ranger. The simultaneous aspect is a killer.<br /><br />In general, it's still just a token for two classes. The fact that the bard can wear it too is hardly going to factor into the equation. After all, in past runs usually you had your armor tokens stuffed into a pocket or something after showing them to the DM at the beginning. The bling factor isn't really bling when no one sees it.<br /><br /><br />