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TOPIC: True Dungeon 2012 Dungeon Only Tokens

Re: True Dungeon 2012 Dungeon Only Tokens 7 years 2 months ago #13

No problem, glad to help. I can imagine a dbase of this size will inevitably have things slip through the cracks.

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Re: True Dungeon 2012 Dungeon Only Tokens 7 years 2 months ago #14

WaterSomePlants wrote: Say, does Earcuff of Enchantment add to existing pluses on weapon for overcoming DR? (ie. on a +2 Axe, it would count as a +3 for overcoming DR).

Or does it just work on non-magical weapons?

Jeff Martin wrote: The effect does not stack. It just makes normal weapons treated like +1 weapons to overcome DR.

Why is this? Based on the text of the Earcuff (and more importantly the precedence of the Bard instruments) wouldn't it make more sense for the Earcuff to be adding +1?

For the Masterwork Bard's Instrument, the "+2 to damage" was originally supposed to indicate that the +2 replaced the standard +1. However, apparently some people got confused and thought it added +2 in addition to the normal +1, which is how it was changed this year.

Similarly, the "Melee weapons treated as +1" can also be read as "plus one" or plus "one". It's ambiguous whether the "plus" is meant as a verb or whether it is specifically attached to the number. Hope that makes sense.

IMHO it seems inconsistent to treat the Bard instruments one way and the Earcuff another way....

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Last edit: by Incognito.

Re: True Dungeon 2012 Dungeon Only Tokens 7 years 2 months ago #15

Jeff Martin wrote: The effect does not stack. It just makes normal weapons treated like +1 weapons to overcome DR.

Incognito wrote: Why is this? Based on the text of the Earcuff (and more importantly the precedence of the Bard instruments) wouldn't it make more sense for the Earcuff to be adding +1?

The Earcuff of Enchantment does not turn a non-magical weapon into a magical (+1) weapon. It does not increase the wearer's to Hit slides or Damage dealt. The earcuff overcomes one specific thing: the need to have a +1 weapon to hit a monster.

I think comparing Earcuff of Enchantment to a bard instrument is a false dichotomy. Bard instruments (well, most of them) actually do increase To Hit slides and/or Damage—Earcuff of Enchantment does not.
Have you looked it up in the TDb ?
Please post TDb corrections/suggestions in this thread .
If I write something in teal, it should not be taken seriously.

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Re: True Dungeon 2012 Dungeon Only Tokens 7 years 2 months ago #16

Druegar wrote: Earcuff of Enchantment[/u][/url] does not turn a non-magical weapon into a magical (+1) weapon. It does not increase the wearer's to Hit slides or Damage dealt. The earcuff overcomes one specific thing: the need to have a +1 weapon to hit a monster.

I think comparing Earcuff of Enchantment to a bard instrument is a false dichotomy. Bard instruments (well, most of them) actually do increase To Hit slides and/or Damage—Earcuff of Enchantment does not.

The main argument used to justify the recent change to bard instruments was because the text on the token was too "confusing." And that the "+2 damage" should really add plus two additional damage instead of representing the total plus 2 damage.

Similarly, I read the text of the Earcuff as melee weapons (like my +2 Longsword) should be treated as an additional +1 (just like how the +2 from the Bard's instrument is treated as *additional* and not *total*).

If something says "+X" does it mean "additional +X" or "total +X"? The Bard's instrument issue has really muddied the waters IMHO.

Alternatively, if you want to take the approach that the Earcuff makes it so your items are "+1" total instead of "additional +1," then it could actually be a LIABILITY if you are using a +2 (or that unique +3 Holy Greatsword). Technically speaking under this interpretation, if I am using a +2 Longsword, the Earcuff will make it so that my "melee weapon is treated as +1 to overcome DR" so that it can no longer hurt monsters that require a +2 or a +3.

The token DB says it only affects non-magical weapons (which means a +3 wouldn't be downgraded to a +1) though I haven't actually seen an official ruling to indicate this and it is not indicated at all in the "text" of the token.

In addition, there are still unresolved issues regarding the definition of "non-magical" weapons, as discussed here:

truedungeon.com/forum?func=view&catid=525&id=153473&limit=12&start=24#156434

with the Frost Short Bow being a non-magical weapon whose description specifically says it is magically imbued. And the Skull of Doom being non-magical yet still an artifact of evil with unexpected consequences.

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Last edit: by Incognito.

Re: True Dungeon 2012 Dungeon Only Tokens 7 years 2 months ago #17

Incognito wrote: I read the text of the Earcuff as melee weapons (like my +2 Longsword) should be treated as an additional +1 (just like how the +2 from the Bard's instrument is treated as *additional* and not *total*).

I'm sorry to be so blunt, it's just that I've exhausted all the other ways I can think of to say this. You're reading it incorrectly. Look at the token: It says, "Melee weapons treated as +1 to overcome DR" Based on your arguments, to me it sounds like you stop reading after the "+1". There's more text after the "+1" and it's very important in explaining how the token works. The token does not say "Melee weapons gain +1" or "Melee weapons are treated as +1". The TDb entry expands on the limited space available on the token and says, "This earcuff does not actually grant a To Hit or Damage bonus".

Furthermore, an Uncommon token should not have the power to make a mundane weapon into a +1 weapon. There is precedent for an Uncommon token to give either a +1 To Hit or +1 Damage, but not both.

Incognito wrote: Alternatively, if you want to take the approach that the Earcuff makes it so your items are "+1" total instead of "additional +1," then it could actually be a LIABILITY if you are using a +2 (or that unique +3 Holy Greatsword). Technically speaking under this interpretation, if I am using a +2 Longsword, the Earcuff will make it so that my "melee weapon is treated as +1 to overcome DR" so that it can no longer hurt monsters that require a +2 or a +3.

Using a very literal interpretation of the token text, one could make that argument. One would be wrong, but the argument could be made.

As I know you know, there isn't room on the tokens for verbose descriptions. Jeff tries very hard to control loopholes generated by limited text, but there will likely be situations where it's impossible to account for every possibility. That's why we have the Token Guide, Quick Token Reference, and Token Database. They can elaborate and clarify the function of tokens with effectively limitless space.

Incognito wrote: The token DB says it only affects non-magical weapons (which means a +3 wouldn't be downgraded to a +1) though I haven't actually seen an official ruling to indicate this and it is not indicated at all in the "text" of the token.

Please ask Jeff if he considers the TDb and the rulings & clarifications within to be official.
Have you looked it up in the TDb ?
Please post TDb corrections/suggestions in this thread .
If I write something in teal, it should not be taken seriously.

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Re: True Dungeon 2012 Dungeon Only Tokens 7 years 2 months ago #18

Weren't the Dragonhide Bracers also a 2012 Volunteer token?

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Re: True Dungeon 2012 Dungeon Only Tokens 7 years 2 months ago #19

They were supposed to be.
Jeff Martin wrote :

it appears that the Dragonhide Bracers were never produced! There was a change in the proof sheet, and somehow they got left off the real printing. Luckily, I had the Coins held back in reserve to use. I had originally intended to hand them out on Sunday as a surprise bonus.

Have you looked it up in the TDb ?
Please post TDb corrections/suggestions in this thread .
If I write something in teal, it should not be taken seriously.

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Re: True Dungeon 2012 Dungeon Only Tokens 7 years 2 months ago #20

Druegar wrote:

Incognito wrote: I read the text of the Earcuff as melee weapons (like my +2 Longsword) should be treated as an additional +1 (just like how the +2 from the Bard's instrument is treated as *additional* and not *total*).

I'm sorry to be so blunt, it's just that I've exhausted all the other ways I can think of to say this. You're reading it incorrectly. Look at the token: It says, "Melee weapons treated as +1 to overcome DR" Based on your arguments, to me it sounds like you stop reading after the "+1". There's more text after the "+1" and it's very important in explaining how the token works. The token does not say "Melee weapons gain +1" or "Melee weapons are treated as +1". The TDb entry expands on the limited space available on the token and says, "This earcuff does not actually grant a To Hit or Damage bonus".

Furthermore, an Uncommon token should not have the power to make a mundane weapon into a +1 weapon. There is precedent for an Uncommon token to give either a +1 To Hit or +1 Damage, but not both.

Oh, I understand this.

What I'm saying is that the Earcuff should make a +2 Longsword a +3 for purposes of overcoming DR (say against that Chain Devil). It wouldn't actually increase + hit/damage. But the "+1" should be adding to the inherent +2 *for DR purposes*.

As I know you know, there isn't room on the tokens for verbose descriptions. Jeff tries very hard to control loopholes generated by limited text, but there will likely be situations where it's impossible to account for every possibility. That's why we have the Token Guide, Quick Token Reference, and Token Database. They can elaborate and clarify the function of tokens with effectively limitless space.

I understand this principle and I agree with it. I just don't like how it is often inconsistently applied.

By default, the assumption should be that you need to read the token description because there is a limited amount of space.

Actually, I don't mind the Earcuff ruling (which requires a reference for clarifications). Similarly, when someone uses a +1 Mithral Longsword I don't mind explaining "the token references to miss chance for incorporeal undead, it doesn't mean you can never literally miss with it."

I think the underlying issue was the decision to "simplify" the Bard's instrument + damage because it was supposed to be too confusing. Why was it a problem to refer people to a clarification in the guide, just like how a large number of other tokens require?

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Re: True Dungeon 2012 Dungeon Only Tokens 7 years 2 months ago #21

Still holding out for the Bracers, lol. A consummable save bonus pales in comparison to the Bracers, which may be of some use in the future.

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