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TOPIC: Last year for the Arcane Recipe tokens...

Last year for the Arcane Recipe tokens... 10 years 4 months ago #1

As planned, this will be the last year for the Arcane Recipe tokens. There will be two this year, and that will bring the total to nine. Also, since we have enough "group power" artifacts out there, let's make these last two Arcane Recipes good for artifacts that only affect one person. The crazy amount of gold spent last year...was...crazy. They can be powerful, but they should only affect one person. Sorry if this makes anyone mad!

The method of distribution this final year will be different. BOTH will be auctioned off together, and none will be placed in the Treasure Generators.

For the most part I think I handled the whole process rather poorly, as things did not turn out as I had imagined. Thank you to those who enjoyed the process, and I apologize to those who found the process un-fun. It was my fault for not publishing and then sticking to said guidelines.

There are only two left to be had, and after that no more "design your own" artifacts. They will be replaced by "pre-designed" artifacts that the token community will help craft. They will only affect one person.
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Last edit: by Jeff Martin.

Re: Last year for the Arcane Recipe tokens... 10 years 4 months ago #2

Thanks, Jeff! When you say "both will be auctioned off together" - they are auctioned off separately and not as a set, right? I'm sure that is what you meant.

The pre-designed artifacts sound like fun, as long as they aren't too overpowered. :)

Thanks,
Mike

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Re: Last year for the Arcane Recipe tokens... 10 years 4 months ago #3

  • Xavon
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That's too bad. I doubt I will be in a position to get one then. And I had a really interesting idea. Oh well.

Jeff Martin wrote: They will be replaced by "pre-designed" artifacts that the token community will help craft. They will only affect one person.


By craft, do you mean design, or turn in component tokens like with the Arcane Recipes? How will these be distributed? Will they be unique?
Applications programming is a race between software engineers, who strive to produce idiot-proof programs, and the Universe, which strives to produce bigger idiots.  <br /><br />So far, the Universe is winning.

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Re: Last year for the Arcane Recipe tokens... 10 years 4 months ago #4

We will auction these off like always...two going to the two highest bidders.

I have always planned for just nine. I ordered just nine of the special holders from Aaron when this all started. I have always been liking nine because of LOTR.

Also, due to some feedback offline, I want to get your opinions on making these last two Artifacts "one person only" affecting. Should we keep it group-affecting? I wanted to make these last two only single-player affecting to discourage huge sums of gold being spent by groups. I guess I feel bad for all those collectors who have supported us all these years who don't have a coalition to win one of these last two.

But...I will leave much of the decision up to you all -- since you guys are affected by it. I think either way will work.


By "craft" in 2012, I mean I will propose a list of 12 new artifacts, and the token community will help me define and adjust all 12 tokens. These will be individual, one of a kind tokens just like the other Artifacts. In 2012, we will auction off the rights to three of them, and then those tokens will be made with those people's names on them -- just like the other ones. We will have all 12 pre-defined and listed, and noted as to when they will be auctioned off. That way people can plan years in advance if they wish.
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Last edit: by Jeff Martin.

Re: Last year for the Arcane Recipe tokens... 10 years 4 months ago #5

Jeff, my vote is to have none of the future Artifact Tokens, including these two, affect the whole group. I think that gets out of control, especially once multiple group-affecting artifacts are in the same group.

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Re: Last year for the Arcane Recipe tokens... 10 years 4 months ago #6

While I understand why you would change it, I would leave the last two just as the others have been. First, it is fair, the other winners were group items. Second, if the last two are single items, then the players who have already won one will likely try and win one again, and at the very least the nine different artifact go to nine different people.
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Re: Last year for the Arcane Recipe tokens... 10 years 4 months ago #7

Jeff Martin wrote: We will auction these off like always...two going to the two highest bidders.

I have always planned for just nine. I ordered just nine of the special holders from Aaron when this all started. I have always been liking nine because of LOTR.

Also, due to some feedback offline, I want to get your opinions on making these last two Artifacts "one person only" affecting. Should we keep it group-affecting? I wanted to make these last two only single-player affecting to discourage huge sums of gold being spent by groups. I guess I feel bad for all those collectors who have supported us all these years who don't have a coalition to win one of these last two.

But...I will leave much of the decision up to you all -- since you guys are affected by it. I think either way will work.


By "craft" in 2012, I mean I will propose a list of 12 new artifacts, and the token community will help me define and adjust all 12 tokens. These will be individual, one of a kind tokens just like the other Artifacts. In 2012, we will auction off the rights to three of them, and then those tokens will be made with those people's names on them -- just like the other ones. We will have all 12 pre-defined and listed, and noted as to when they will be auctioned off. That way people can plan years in advance if they wish.


Jeff,

I would recommend that after these 9 Artifact Tokens are finished, you stop auctioning artifact tokens completely and go back to auctioning off tokens and items that don't have in-game value.

I think that the same fairly small group of people will continue to win these auctions, and that fairly soon you'll have groups with 5-6 or even more of these game-altering artifacts. It will be impossible for you to design a Dungeon that is challenging for the groups with multiple artifacts and still reasonably survivable by groups without the artifacts. My main concern is that you will design the top level Dungeons so that they are challenging to the groups with multiple artifacts, and make it too difficult for the rest of the groups without Artifacts.

It seems that the auctions did just fine for years without having these super-powerful artifacts, and would do just fine again without them. I'd recommend something like a new set of Artisan Tokens rather than new Artifact Tokens.

Thanks,
Mike

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Re: Last year for the Arcane Recipe tokens... 10 years 4 months ago #8

Jeff Martin wrote: Also, due to some feedback offline, I want to get your opinions on making these last two Artifacts "one person only" affecting. Should we keep it group-affecting? I wanted to make these last two only single-player affecting to discourage huge sums of gold being spent by groups. I guess I feel bad for all those collectors who have supported us all these years who don't have a coalition to win one of these last two.



(Disclaimer: I have never been in the running for winning any of the Artifacts, so I'm a bit more objective than those who are competing for the auctions)

I agree with your decision to limit the final 2 artifacts to just individual powers (no groups powers). You make several excellent points.

In fact, most people were initially under the impression that artifacts could only affect an individual (not a group). It was only when Smak's artifact was revealed did everyone do a complete turnabout. I recall Gary posting about how he thought artifacts could only affect one individual (and then wanting to revise his artifact as a result). While it would have been better to have kept the limit to individual-only right from the beginning, there's nothing we can do about the past artifacts. But it makes sense to change things now.

In addition, I agree that the politicking and coalition-building that has resulted from the group-benefit artifacts, is unlikely to be good for the game (since it can faction-ize players) and isn't necessarily the fairest method either.

So I agree with your proposed changes.

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Re: Last year for the Arcane Recipe tokens... 10 years 4 months ago #9

it's all good. :)
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Re: Last year for the Arcane Recipe tokens... 10 years 4 months ago #10

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Mike Steele wrote: I would recommend that after these 9 Artifact Tokens are finished, you stop auctioning artifact tokens completely and go back to auctioning off tokens and items that don't have in-game value.

I think that the same fairly small group of people will continue to win these auctions, and that fairly soon you'll have groups with 5-6 or even more of these game-altering artifacts. It will be impossible for you to design a Dungeon that is challenging for the groups with multiple artifacts and still reasonably survivable by groups without the artifacts. My main concern is that you will design the top level Dungeons so that they are challenging to the groups with multiple artifacts, and make it too difficult for the rest of the groups without Artifacts.

It seems that the auctions did just fine for years without having these super-powerful artifacts, and would do just fine again without them. I'd recommend something like a new set of Artisan Tokens rather than new Artifact Tokens.

Thanks,
Mike


If most or all of the artifacts only effect one person, and each player is limited to one artifact per run, it wouldn't be that bad. And the same power vs design argument could be made for URs. The difference between an all (or mostly) purple Fighter and an all red fighter Fighter is huge. And the average player probably won't even be able to equip their character with all reds.

Also, if new players don't even have the option to get items at the same power level as veteran players, it will not encourage them to stay with the game. There is already a huge gap in player levels, and with the current XP system it will be years (decades?) before players start to reach high enough levels that the difference doesn't matter. Can't Catch Up is a tremendous disincentive, and having it apply in a more game pertinent way could be crippling. So much as I hate comparing TD to a CCG, it does seem to apply in this case.

TD needs to either keep dribbling out artifacts, and hopefully find a way/incentive to let people who don't have one get a shot. Or else ban existing artifacts in all but special events. Not that I condone banning, I think it is horribly unfair to those players and uncool in general.
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Last edit: by Xavon.

Re: Last year for the Arcane Recipe tokens... 10 years 4 months ago #11

Xavon wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I would recommend that after these 9 Artifact Tokens are finished, you stop auctioning artifact tokens completely and go back to auctioning off tokens and items that don't have in-game value.

I think that the same fairly small group of people will continue to win these auctions, and that fairly soon you'll have groups with 5-6 or even more of these game-altering artifacts. It will be impossible for you to design a Dungeon that is challenging for the groups with multiple artifacts and still reasonably survivable by groups without the artifacts. My main concern is that you will design the top level Dungeons so that they are challenging to the groups with multiple artifacts, and make it too difficult for the rest of the groups without Artifacts.

It seems that the auctions did just fine for years without having these super-powerful artifacts, and would do just fine again without them. I'd recommend something like a new set of Artisan Tokens rather than new Artifact Tokens.

Thanks,
Mike


If most or all of the artifacts only effect one person, and each player is limited to one artifact per run, it wouldn't be that bad. And the same power vs design argument could be made for URs. The difference between an all (or mostly) purple Fighter and an all red fighter Fighter is huge. And the average player probably won't even be able to equip their character with all reds.

Also, if new players don't even have the option to get items at the same power level as veteran players, it will not encourage them to stay with the game. There is already a huge gap in player levels, and with the current XP system it will be years (decades?) before players start to reach high enough levels that the difference doesn't matter. Can't Catch Up is a tremendous disincentive, and having it apply in a more game pertinent way could be crippling. So much as I hate comparing TD to a CCG, it does seem to apply in this case.

TD needs to either keep dribbling out artifacts, and hopefully find a way/incentive to let people who don't have one get a shot. Or else ban existing artifacts in all but special events. Not that I condone banning, I think it is horribly unfair to those players and uncool in general.


I agree that a limit on the number of artifacts per person would help limit things, but there isn't any limit on the number of artifacts a person can have, is there?

I don't think you can compare the impact of Ultra-Rares on game balance to that of Artifacts. Ultra-Rares aren't that big of an upgrade on Rares - armor has about a +1 AC bonus, and weapons have about a +1Dam/+1Hit bonus on average. The Artifacts are so high-powered it is almost like giving the people super-powers, they are light-years better than any comparable Ultra-Rare or Rare.

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Re: Last year for the Arcane Recipe tokens... 10 years 4 months ago #12

  • bpsymington
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I have no artifacts, nor will I ever have enough gold to get one, but I agree with the idea that future artifacts should apply just to the individual.

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