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TOPIC: Contemplating Gregor's Tome

Contemplating Gregor's Tome 8 months 2 weeks ago #13

This is what I would suggest:

Slotless: Autosucceed on skill checks

That's it. No focus bonus.

Those who like it can get it. Those who don't can avoid it. It makes it feel like the Bowl of Spirit Sight where some people really value it and others can avoid it.

I do NOT like slotless Focus bonus (whether that is +1 or +2). That is too strong and just makes it a "must have." Think of all the various Focus items that DO exist (many at UR). This has that ability (stronger than the Ring) and its slotless.

I mean, compare this to the Relic which is +3 but takes a slot. This is +2 and is slotless. This is arguably better than the Relic ring!!!

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Contemplating Gregor's Tome 8 months 2 weeks ago #14

Arnold wrote: I had eventually adopted a stance that skill-bypass checks are fine. It takes away a little bit of the mechanics, but overall not egregious.

If it did return, I think it should absolutely remove the Focus part. What you say about BIS is 100% true, and as soon as this puppy went OOP, its price would balloon.

.....


I really like this as an auto succeed, i'd rather see more UR's that are desired by the niche base vs more general good stuff. I'd actually consider this as i do run a fair amount of pugs every year and switch classes quite a bit and build accordingly. I've been collecting useful rares and have a wallet of them set aside for the when I have to play X class.

This encourages that to me and covers multiple classes where i'd consider pyp or getting one in trade as it feels like i'd get use out of it. Please have it for the bard. I've been a training coach too many times now and i still fail at that board/skill check.
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Contemplating Gregor's Tome 8 months 2 weeks ago #15

Incognito wrote: This is what I would suggest:

Slotless: Autosucceed on skill checks

That's it. No focus bonus.

Those who like it can get it. Those who don't can avoid it. It makes it feel like the Bowl of Spirit Sight where some people really value it and others can avoid it.

I do NOT like slotless Focus bonus (whether that is +1 or +2). That is too strong and just makes it a "must have." Think of all the various Focus items that DO exist (many at UR). This has that ability (stronger than the Ring) and its slotless.

I mean, compare this to the Relic which is +3 but takes a slot. This is +2 and is slotless. This is arguably better than the Relic ring!!!


A persuasive argument that I can get behind.

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Contemplating Gregor's Tome 8 months 2 weeks ago #16

It does help with DMing as well s DMs do not have to be pulled away from the table as often.

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Last edit: by Lordoftherealm.

Contemplating Gregor's Tome 8 months 2 weeks ago #17

As an auto-pass token, I would probably grab 2 or 3, to have for PUG auto passes, as well as one for me to try unfamiliar classes.

As a slotless focus token, I would grab 5 of them, one for each class.

Slotless is a LOT of power.
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Contemplating Gregor's Tome 8 months 2 weeks ago #18

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Arnold wrote: Where's the love for folks with anxiety who discover our great game in 2021 and beyond?


Same could be said for the Rod of Persuasion.

Some folks have shaky fingers and would rather bring a few consumables along to offset the damage, than do the test. But in 2021 it'll be hard to find that OOP token.

I'm hoping that some of these options make a come-back in future years... either as reprints, or in different slots, or as transmutes.

Xavon wrote: Raven, did you see my suggestion? Namely that the Token be an xor prospect. Auto-succeed, or try it and get the bonus. What would you say to that?


Probably missed it in the flood of posts.

My response, tho, is that it'd be hard to police that idea. If you want to use it as a +1 it would be recorded on the party card. If you want to use it for the auto-succeed, it's shown in the dungeon. Too easy to double-dip.

Also, I am still advocating a Tome slot for all Tomes, Libriums, Manuals, and Book type tokens.


I would not be against a Tome slot. First I'd like to see what Jeff has up his sleeve for making int/Wis more useful in the next couple years. Who knows: It may be the thing which controls Tome use? Like Cha controls Figurine use.
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Contemplating Gregor's Tome 8 months 2 weeks ago #19

100% agree as well. Slotless: Autosucceed on skill checks would be a great idea, much better than another + power token.

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Contemplating Gregor's Tome 8 months 2 weeks ago #20

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Incognito wrote: I do NOT like slotless Focus bonus (whether that is +1 or +2). That is too strong and just makes it a "must have." Think of all the various Focus items that DO exist (many at UR). This has that ability (stronger than the Ring) and its slotless.

I mean, compare this to the Relic which is +3 but takes a slot. This is +2 and is slotless. This is arguably better than the Relic ring!!!


I wasn't even thinking of it in terms of comparing to the Focus Rings, but you're right: A slotless +1 Focus item is OP in its own right.

If there's a Tome slot eventually, it might be appropriate for a +1 Tome of focus. But if we put the +1 into a slotless token right now, then there'll be that much more backlash against any potential Tome slot in the future, because people would see it as losing a free +1 focus.
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Contemplating Gregor's Tome 8 months 2 weeks ago #21

As far as power don't druids have the mistletoe? +1 slotless at uncommon.
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Last edit: by Adam Guay.

Contemplating Gregor's Tome 8 months 2 weeks ago #22

Adam Guay wrote: As far as power don't druids have the mistletoe? +1 slotless at uncommon.


Only to their damage spells (7 spell boxes)
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Contemplating Gregor's Tome 8 months 2 weeks ago #23

I have kept my powder dry on Gregor's Tome of Focus because I assume Jeff knew what he wanted in a remembrance token, and out of sensitivity for the feelings of Jeff and his family.

- Ray's Ring of Remembrance is unique and powerful.
- Stu's +3 is arguably the best UR weapon period, ignoring transmute path equity.


Frankly I cringe to see all the discussion on this, some of which is very critical. I wish we could have patted Jeff on the shoulder and said: "Nice one!" about this token and saved the acrimony for something else.


That being said, there are some things I have seen discussed here that I want to address:


1. If True Dungeon wishes to provide accommodation to be more inclusive to people of different capabilities, trying to address that on an ultra rare token, or in any way commercializing that accommodation is absolutely not the right way to go about it.

Based on all my interactions with Jeff and TD, I think there is a reasonable chance that such accommodations are already in place - I haven't had occasion to ask.

By all means: create policies for those who have difficulty with coordination, memory, or any other issue that impairs their participation of the game and can be accommodated.

These policies should not require any sort of token to use.

So, wherever we all come down on Auto-pass skill checks, if there is an inclusion element in consideration, it would be much better to just allow whatever the inclusion fix is for the appropriate people free of charge and without restriction.

If there is a reason why a TD player, who we should value as a sibling in arms, needs to skip skill checks, or slides, they shouldn't have to acquire tokens to play (IMO).


2. I believe the concerns over slotless power creep are very chicken little.

True Dungeon is heading into its 17th year. There are exactly 2 melee boosting slotless token that is not consumable: Rod of Seven Parts, and Rod of Seven Parts Segment 5. They can not both be used at the same time.

Gregor's Tome of Focus is the second slotless spell booster that effects the party card. The first was Druid's Mistletoe - which hasn't brought about the power creep apocalypse yet. (Carter's Tome is Slotless, +2 Staff of Power is effectively slotless, and both provide the benefit of one or a few consumable scrolls each adventure - thus are not power creep in any meaningful way).

Let me list you all the slots that have melee boosters in them... No, that would take too long, instead let me list you all the slots that do not have melee boosters in them: Earcuff, Back. (And Back has Rogue Sneak Attack boosters, and Gnomish Fizzy Lifting Pack is a melee enabler)

I agree that we don't want Slotless power creep to get away out of control, and it certainly could someday, but worrying about +1/2 focus in a slotless token when there are STR or Melee boosters in literally every single slot other than Earcuff and Back, and the STR cap is going up by 6 this year while giving +3 melee damage to one-handed weapons is picking out drapes while the house is on fire.

Melee players have been enjoying a slotless +1 to STR since 2012. Druids have been enjoying Mistletoe since 2009. Let Clerics and Wizards in on the fun. I'll join you in the next fight against slotless offense power creep, but having 1 ability boosting slotless token per class is not OP

3. Bards don't have any spell skill checks, so taking away the focus element of this token makes it useless to Bards.

4. I liked the first version of this token. If it has to change again I'd take it back to where it was:

Auto succeed at skill checks and +1 focus and +1 to polymorph damage, Cleric, Druid, and Wizard.
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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Contemplating Gregor's Tome 8 months 2 weeks ago #24

Incognito wrote: This is what I would suggest:

Slotless: Autosucceed on skill checks

That's it. No focus bonus.


I like it. I would absolutely still get it.
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