TOPIC: Vaccine and masking debate, trying to shift this off the gencon update thread

There is a robust debate going on as for vaccines, mask, public and corporate policies. I think it’s fine to have the debate, but I feel the update thread is the wrong place for the debate.

Let’s have the debate here, let’s be civil, let’s not assume the worst in people, let’s try and understand where people are coming from.

More dialog less anger

There is no debate.

This is another problem with anti-vaxxers and other crackpots. One group of people are making decisions based on science, evidence, and the advice of experts. The other group does their research on Facebook and follows one of the 12 super spreaders of mis-information on twitter like Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

Please stop attempting to say this is some debate or that the two sides are coming at this in good faith or with ideas of equal merit. It's not even close.

Wear a mask. Get vaccinated.

Indianapolis still requires masks as of today, so we can just assume we will be required to wear them until the city, and Gen Con, say otherwise. Nobody is bullying anyone, and to say otherwise is just trying to create an issue that doesn't exist.

I will put some insights to consider...but first...
1. I am vaccinated (Pfizer)
2. I voted for the other guy...
3. I don't like the situation, but I want to have the freedoms I can have...even if it means a mask or access card.

The vaccine is the "fastest" ever...doesn't mean it was not tested enough. There are processes in place, both in vitro and in silico...

the trials for all medications tend to be hugely backlogged and ultimately workflow processes (computers with just showing what to do next) gets clogged with tons of stuff that doesn't matter. To get to the "fastest ever", it simply got rid of the "WAIT time" inside the queue...the work itself tho' remained the same.

Typically medicines require huge trials that consider budget constraints...the budget constraints were removed. Companies typically pipeline all their drugs in an order of "profitability" to market...

The science they did was "known"...there was a bit of discovery to create COVID-19...but the creation of it and its injestion, that is just common pathways (the lipids on RNA, etc)...

Inside baseball, the amount of safety reporting is astronomical...people are reporting every little thing...including a runny nose...but even at the intense volume, its very low critical health side-effects. Everyone will bring their history...but 50 years ago, we did learn from the bad stuff...

One last thing, DNA composition is used in gathering a good cross-section of the population instead of just asking some inmates to try it for "cigarettes"

In the history of the world, there has never been a study of this magnitude where every single scientist in the world is studying the same thing...its not 500 scientists inside a pharma trying to figure out Alzheimer's.

I've been vaccinated and think everyone who can be should. I think people that state they'll never get vaccinated are ignorant. I also think there's multiple points in the spectrum in between. I don't think it is helpful to immediately bucket someone who isn't in full agreement with you into the extreme opposite end of the spectrum.

jpotter wrote: There is no debate.

This is another problem with anti-vaxxers and other crackpots. One group of people are making decisions based on science, evidence, and the advice of experts. The other group does their research on Facebook and follows one of the 12 super spreaders of mis-information on twitter like Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

Please stop attempting to say this is some debate or that the two sides are coming at this in good faith or with ideas of equal merit. It's not even close.

Wear a mask. Get vaccinated.

+1

Age old debate of fact versus fiction and a lot of misinformation and misdirection by the fiction group.

jpotter wrote: There is no debate.

This is another problem with anti-vaxxers and other crackpots. One group of people are making decisions based on science, evidence, and the advice of experts. The other group does their research on Facebook and follows one of the 12 super spreaders of mis-information on twitter like Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

Please stop attempting to say this is some debate or that the two sides are coming at this in good faith or with ideas of equal merit. It's not even close.

Wear a mask. Get vaccinated.

Calling names does not garner any good will, from vaxxers or anti-vaxxers. "They" either for or against are still people and discourse around the why is not a bad thing. They may not understand that others cannot get the vaccine because they have sub-dermal transfusions or reactions to the biological substance within the vaccine in question. They may not know that finding a vaccine is as easy as going to a website ( www.vaccines.gov/search/ ) or calling their doctor.

"They" also isn't we, and this is about how we resolve a pandemic and "they" can be very offensive when we don't answer legitimate questions. Illegitimate questions can be spoken to as well without name calling so long as the discourse around those questions is productive discourse and everyone is civil.

macxdmg wrote:
Calling names does not garner any good will, from vaxxers or anti-vaxxers. "They" either for or against are still people and discourse around the why is not a bad thing. They may not understand that others cannot get the vaccine because they have sub-dermal transfusions or reactions to the biological substance within the vaccine in question. They may not know that finding a vaccine is as easy as going to a website ( www.vaccines.gov/search/ ) or calling their doctor.

"They" also isn't we, and this is about how we resolve a pandemic and "they" can be very offensive when we don't answer legitimate questions. Illegitimate questions can be spoken to as well without name calling so long as the discourse around those questions is productive discourse and everyone is civil.

I agree with all of these points. Your post makes it seem like you think I wouldn't?

ohhh - nevermind. You take issue with me calling them crackpots and think that would push them away from listening to legitimate reasoning. Sure I'll concede that point.

They are still crackpots

macxdmg wrote:

jpotter wrote: There is no debate.

This is another problem with anti-vaxxers and other crackpots. One group of people are making decisions based on science, evidence, and the advice of experts. The other group does their research on Facebook and follows one of the 12 super spreaders of mis-information on twitter like Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

Please stop attempting to say this is some debate or that the two sides are coming at this in good faith or with ideas of equal merit. It's not even close.

Wear a mask. Get vaccinated.

Calling names does not garner any good will, from vaxxers or anti-vaxxers. "They" either for or against are still people and discourse around the why is not a bad thing. They may not understand that others cannot get the vaccine because they have sub-dermal transfusions or reactions to the biological substance within the vaccine in question. They may not know that finding a vaccine is as easy as going to a website ( www.vaccines.gov/search/ ) or calling their doctor.

"They" also isn't we, and this is about how we resolve a pandemic and "they" can be very offensive when we don't answer legitimate questions. Illegitimate questions can be spoken to as well without name calling so long as the discourse around those questions is productive discourse and everyone is civil.

“Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - Mark Twain.

I disagree that civil discourse is the solution for dealing with anti-mask or anti-vaxxers anymore. The first conversation where you present the evidence makes sense. After that point, it is a choice. They are willfully ignorant. The behavior is reprehensible and needs to be condemned and spotlighted. They aren’t just uninformed - those chose a specific idea and are camping there regardless of what reality actually shows. That willful ignorance already killed 500,000 Americans and many millions world-wide.

A tiny percentage of people can’t get this type of vaccine. It is a tiny fraction of 1% of the population. They have a legitimate medical excuse. They aren’t who we are talking about. It’s the 30% that are a problem.

This could have been over in April 2020. Countries like South Korea and New Zealand proved that.

We have lost too many loved ones for giving these people a pass at the cost of people who didn’t deserve to die.

So, yes, events should require vaccination or medical proof that you can’t get vaccinated. If you break those rules, the consequences should be severe. Using a fake vaccination card should be a felony (arguably, it might be already since they are issued by a Federal agency.) We should encourage all businesses that are public facing to require proof of vaccination for entry. Elected officials who stop short of supporting this should be voted out and replaced with those who will.

This isn’t a “rights” issue. Your rights end the moment they impact others. Basic social contract - you give up the right to screw others over in exchange for the benefits of society.

I don’t think people get that this isn’t over. Every 10M cases, we get another serious mutation. It is quite literally a matter of time before a mutation will be different enough to beat the MRNA design. If that happens, we will see immediate mass waves of the disease much more dangerous than before.

Even if Covid is reduced enough to be a seasonal controllable disease. The factors that led to it are increasingly prevalent worldwide. The odds of another zootropic disease mutation like Covid are quite high. It is unfortunate but this will almost certainly happen again in our lifetime if not this decade.

Please don’t present those refusing masks and vaccines as anything but individuals who are choosing to hurt others for their own convenience. Yes, this makes them a “they.” That isn’t a bad thing. There are people who make choices that getting a “them” label makes sense and should be ostracized.

Fred

Fred K wrote:

macxdmg wrote:

jpotter wrote: There is no debate.

This is another problem with anti-vaxxers and other crackpots. One group of people are making decisions based on science, evidence, and the advice of experts. The other group does their research on Facebook and follows one of the 12 super spreaders of mis-information on twitter like Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

Please stop attempting to say this is some debate or that the two sides are coming at this in good faith or with ideas of equal merit. It's not even close.

Wear a mask. Get vaccinated.

Calling names does not garner any good will, from vaxxers or anti-vaxxers. "They" either for or against are still people and discourse around the why is not a bad thing. They may not understand that others cannot get the vaccine because they have sub-dermal transfusions or reactions to the biological substance within the vaccine in question. They may not know that finding a vaccine is as easy as going to a website ( www.vaccines.gov/search/ ) or calling their doctor.

"They" also isn't we, and this is about how we resolve a pandemic and "they" can be very offensive when we don't answer legitimate questions. Illegitimate questions can be spoken to as well without name calling so long as the discourse around those questions is productive discourse and everyone is civil.

“Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - Mark Twain.

I disagree that civil discourse is the solution for dealing with anti-mask or anti-vaxxers anymore. The first conversation where you present the evidence makes sense. After that point, it is a choice. They are willfully ignorant. The behavior is reprehensible and needs to be condemned and spotlighted. They aren’t just uninformed - those chose a specific idea and are camping there regardless of what reality actually shows. That willful ignorance already killed 500,000 Americans and many millions world-wide.

A tiny percentage of people can’t get this type of vaccine. It is a tiny fraction of 1% of the population. They have a legitimate medical excuse. They aren’t who we are talking about. It’s the 30% that are a problem.

This could have been over in April 2020. Countries like South Korea and New Zealand proved that.

We have lost too many loved ones for giving these people a pass at the cost of people who didn’t deserve to die.

So, yes, events should require vaccination or medical proof that you can’t get vaccinated. If you break those rules, the consequences should be severe. Using a fake vaccination card should be a felony (arguably, it might be already since they are issued by a Federal agency.) We should encourage all businesses that are public facing to require proof of vaccination for entry. Elected officials who stop short of supporting this should be voted out and replaced with those who will.

This isn’t a “rights” issue. Your rights end the moment they impact others. Basic social contract - you give up the right to screw others over in exchange for the benefits of society.

I don’t think people get that this isn’t over. Every 10M cases, we get another serious mutation. It is quite literally a matter of time before a mutation will be different enough to beat the MRNA design. If that happens, we will see immediate mass waves of the disease much more dangerous than before.

Even if Covid is reduced enough to be a seasonal controllable disease. The factors that led to it are increasingly prevalent worldwide. The odds of another zootropic disease mutation like Covid are quite high. It is unfortunate but this will almost certainly happen again in our lifetime if not this decade.

Please don’t present those refusing masks and vaccines as anything but individuals who are choosing to hurt others for their own convenience. Yes, this makes them a “they.” That isn’t a bad thing. There are people who make choices that getting a “them” label makes sense and should be ostracized.

Fred

See this is how you radicalize people who are already on the defensive. It ends conversations, and then there is really nothing to do but become radicalized (both sides).

I am eagerly waiting for my vaccine.

I dont think I have the right to tell anyone else what to do, even if I think getting the vaccine is a really really good idea.

Rights dont ever "end". If they do, IMO, they are not rights.

I also am not what you would call a Biden supporter.

End of the day, ask yourself even if you belive in your point strongly. Do you belive the other person believes in their point just as honestly and strongly as you. If you can, would it be ok for them to force their sincerely held belief on you even though you belive it to be wrong. If not, why dont you think they can be just as convinced of something as you?

The whole us/them thing doesn't lead anywhere good no matter how riotous the cause. Instead, be patient, keep talking, try to radicalize people, and consider your position may be radical too.

We're all in this together, and were all stressed.

Whatever happened to my body, my choice?

They have been wrong about everything from the get go, so why is questioning the entire situation, rushed vaccines and the competency of the people pushing forced compliance being a crackpot? If you feel comfortable getting the vaccine go for it, if you don't that's ok too.

The most susceptible people are overweight, old, have moderate to serious per-existing medical conditions. Maybe eat better, get off your arse and exercise, take immune boosting vitamins and practice personal responsibility. (If are sick in general stay home, you should not need a government billboard to educate you to wash your hands, see someone coughing stay clear etc)

Personally, I respect everyone's decision to live their life accordingly as they see fit. Not for me to say or tell them how to live. In my experience, I've found the extreme shamers to live the rest of their lives pretty unhealthy while lecturing others on how they should live.

Picc wrote:
I dont think I have the right to tell anyone else what to do, even if I think getting the vaccine is a really really good idea.

Rights dont ever "end". If they do, IMO, they are not rights.

Neither you nor anyone else has a right to endanger me or my family. If you believe that you do, I'd like to hear your thoughts on laws in general. Do you feel that they are infringing on your right to shoot others? Do you feel they are infringing on your right to drive down the opposite side of the street and hit people who are following the rules?

Do you feel that restaurants and supermarkets should be free to serve people rotten food? How about laws for cleanliness? Do all of these infringe upon the rights of the people working there?

This is not false equivalency. Not wearing a mask or getting the vaccine will result in preventable deaths. If you feel you have a right to do those things, I assume you feel the right to ignore all laws made to protect others?

JACKOFTRADZE wrote: Whatever happened to my body, my choice?

They have been wrong about everything from the get go, so why is questioning the entire situation, rushed vaccines and the competency of the people pushing forced compliance being a crackpot? If you feel comfortable getting the vaccine go for it, if you don't that's ok too.

THIS is false equivalency. You do whatever you want with your body. If it endangers the community, however, you need to stop it.

Also who has been wrong about everything from the get-go?

It's not ok for people to not get the vaccine without a valid medical reason, for the myriad of reasons that Fred stated above. Those people's refusal will result in preventable deaths. It may even lead to further outbreaks and vaccines becoming ineffective due to new variants.

Some of you are saying we're all in this together. No we aren't. There are those of us willing to be slightly inconvenienced and to get a shot for the betterment of the community. Then there are a bunch of selfish people who want the rest of us to shoulder the burden, but still want to maintain the benefits of living in our society. Those people aren't in it with us. They've decided they are on nobody's side but their own.