TOPIC: Safehold I and Mythic Token Ideas

Note: The latest Safehold document can be found here:

truedungeon.com/files/Safehold_Program_Details.pdf

It has not been updated in a while with any new official content, but it is a good reference for gathering input for the final part of the Safehold program (Safehold I and Mythic tokens).

Last year, we published a rather detailed idea for Safehold I and Mythic tokens. There was a lot there, as we hoped to create something really new (and more complicated). The whole idea, however, was eventually shelved due to feedback from players, Coaches, DMs and app folks. The main concerns were that the proposed ideas were too complicated and cumbersome for everyone mentioned above. Reluctantly, I agree, so it is time to start over to seek a more simple approach.

So...I hope everyone can perform a memory-wipe -- and start this discussion with a clean slate. PLEASE don't reference anything from last year, as we are starting all over again. We will make something cool – but it must be easy on the aforementioned folks.
Here are my thoughts in no particular order:

1) I want to create the "Mythic" level of Difficulty Rating that will take the place of the “Epic” DR. We will make it more difficult than even the current Epic DR, and we will produce “Mythic” Survivor buttons. We will phase out the old Nightmare level Survivor buttons. Thus, you can gain Survivor buttons for playing on either Normal or Mythic DR. So, we will have Non-Lethal, Normal, Nightmare and Mythic DR, but only Normal and Mythic give out Survivor buttons.
2) The Mythic tokens (which can only be made with Mythic Transmuter tokens gained with a Safehold I token) should not be class-specific tokens as we already have some at the Neck-slot. Let’s make these more applicable to multiple classes.
3) The powers of the Mythic tokens should roughly double those powers of Legendary tokens, but they should cost about 50% more than a 2025 Legendary due to the big cost to make a Safehold I token. Let’s make the recipes the exact same for all Mythic tokens (except the Coin of Wealth).
4) The recipes for the Mythic tokens should be much like other Transmute tokens – using the standard Trade tokens. The only new thing I want to introduce to the whole Trade program is a 100,000 GP Bar that will be used in all Mythic token recipes.
5) While it would be neat to create new characters and new powers/spells, we need to keep it simple. Maybe we can emphasize something new like “Damage Limiting” where a monster will only take 100 points of damage in a round no matter what – unless the attacker has a certain Charm to allow her damage to count beyond the 100-point limit? Whatever new we can add some be somewhat simple to implement.
6) The Coin of Wealth will likely be the only thing some Safehold I owners will make. That token should probably cost more than the other Mythics…maybe 2-3 times a 2025 Legendary.
7) The Mythic tokens should not be difficult to understand and implement. How to make them needs to be an easy and natural extension of the whole Transmute program.
8) We should design ALL Mythic tokens this year, and promise not to make any new ones in the future. That way folks can make informed decisions about what to make, and they don’t have to worry about new cooler Mythic tokens showing up later. The recipes will be fixed, too. Let’s make 12 Mythic tokens – and none of which will be class-specific. They can be targeted toward Melee, Spells, Powers, Ranged, etc. – or grant powers like overcoming the “Damage Limiting” power mentioned above.

These are some thoughts rolling around in my head. I’d love to read your ideas riffing off of the above notes. What 12 Mythic tokens do you want to see – with the Coin of Wealth being a given.

Thank you for your thoughts.

Thanks for the update, Jeff! Does this mean that Hardcore is also getting phased out, or was that an oversight?

Do you still get a normal Survival pin for surviving on Nightmare?

Jeff Martin wrote: So, we will have Non-Lethal, Normal, Nightmare and Mythic DR, but only Normal and Mythic give out Survivor buttons.

Clarification - does this mean the Hardcore difficulty rating is going away?

1. Is a token still going to be required to play Mythic Difficulty?

2. Can Mythic tokens be used outside of Mythic Difficulty?

3. Will there be any ways to get more Mythic transumers?

Hi Jeff!

Thanks for opening this up for discussions for everyone to participate in! Here are a few thoughts on your post.

1) The Survivor buttons are one of the favorite parts of True Dungeon for my friends. I don't really understand why they would only be given at Normal and Mythic levels. Why not have a "normal" Survivor Button that is given for all sub-Mythic difficulty levels, and then a special one for Mythic level? That way everyone that plays can still get one.

2) You mention difficulty levels of Non-Lethal, Normal, Nightmare and Mythic. Does that mean that you're phasing out Hardcore level? I hope that isn't the case. Normal is far too easy for my group, but none of them enjoyed playing Nightmare level. If Hardcore level is phased out, I don't think there is a difficulty level left that my group would want to play, and I have to think we're not the only ones in that situation.

3) Having the Mythic tokens be only 50% more expensive than Legendary tokens seems far too cheap to me, it doesn't do much at all to soak more trade items/GP out of circulation, especially if it is permanently capped at 12 items. I'd recommend all Mythic tokens be 2-3 times the cost of a Legendary instead of just the Coin of Wealth.

4) Do you have to have a Safehold I to use Mythic tokens? Or can someone with a Safehold I use all of their transmute tokens to make Coins of Wealth and loan the others out?

5) Can Mythic tokens be used at all difficulty levels, or just Mythic level?

6) Will part of a Mythic Token recipe be a Legendary token? If so, it makes sense to make Mythic tokens a more powerful version of existing Legendary tokens.

7) Some thoughts on non-Class specific Legendary tokens that might be neat:
a. Savings Throw Cloak
b. Focus Ring
c. Gauntlets of God Power
d. Boots of Unlimited Wind (more powerful version of Boots of the Four Winds)
e. More powerful version of Rod of the Seven Parts
f. Vorpal Sword (usable by Fighters/Paladin/Barbarian/Ranger)
g. Ioun Stone Trilliant improvement
h. Mythic Ring giving +12 melee/ranged damage
i. Girdle of Giant Strength upgrade from Fire Giant
j. AC Bracers item
k. Coin of Wealth, but make it +26 treasure coins instead of +20 and not let it stack with Silver/Gold/Platinum Nuggets in addition. That should be OK as long as you don't include the Nuggets in the recipe. That would also give people that didn't get the nuggets a way to get their bonus.

8. I understand your thinking regarding limiting it to 12 items, but do you want to really set that in stone? Maybe say it will be limited to 12 for a period of time (maybe 5 years?) and say it will be looked at after that. Or maybe leave it at 12 and have some other avenue to get additional Mythic tokens in the future outside of the Safehold structure.

9. I like your idea of limiting the max damage a monster can take in a single turn - but if you do that, don't create tokens that get around that limit. Make it a hard limit for everyone. Otherwise more and more people will get the tokens that bypass the limit and make it tough to design dungeons around both groups that bypass the limit and groups that can't.

10. If there are 12 Mythic tokens, can someone with a Safehold I make all 12, or do they have to make multiple Safehold I tokens in order to make all 12? I think it's fine if a Safehold I can only make 5 Mythic tokens (for instance), that would either make someone pick and choose which to make or get multiple Safehold I tokens to get them all.

Jeff Martin wrote: 3) The powers of the Mythic tokens should roughly double those powers of Legendary tokens, but they should cost about 50% more than a 2025 Legendary due to the big cost to make a Safehold I token. Let’s make the recipes the exact same for all Mythic tokens (except the Coin of Wealth).

This seems against the grain of previous rarity/cost tradeoffs in TD.

A rare costs maybe 10x a common and gives around +1 to hit and damage.

An Ultra Rare costs maybe 50x of a rare and gives around +1 to hit and damage, or +1 to saves, or +1 to focus over a rare.

A Relic costs 2-5x an UR and gives +1 to hit and damage, or +1 to saves, etc. over a UR.

A Legendary costs 3-5x a Relic and gives +2 to hit and damage, or +2 to saves, etc. over a Relic

But the final Mythic step costs 1.5x a Legendary and gives +5 to hit and damage, or +6 to saves, etc. over a Legendary?

Safehold I owners are fairly compensated for the costs of building a safehold with their six additional build slots (2 hirelings, 2 underlings, 1 follower, 1 henchman) - they don't need a further incentive of relatively cheap Mythic tokens at the end of the rainbow, in my opinion.

Anyway, TL:DR; I'd advocate for Mythics:

Recipes should: cost in the 3-5x of a Legendary range (Or include a Legendary in the Recipe and have a 2-4x Legendary additional trade good costs)

Powers Provided should be in the range of the Relic to Legendary jump - e.g. an additional +2 to hit and damage, +2 to saves, +2 to focus, etc. over a Legendary.

For Coin of Wealth - please don't play silly games to somehow work around the slot cost / need to acquire the Ioun Stone Silver/Gold/Platinum nuggets.

If people want the 6 treasure for these, let them acquire the tokens and use the 3 build slots.

Coin of Wealth will still be the most desirable token ever made without effectively giving 3 bonus Ioun Slots to players who have them and/or averting the need to acquire the nuggets in the first place.

Jeff Martin wrote: 5) While it would be neat to create new characters and new powers/spells, we need to keep it simple. Maybe we can emphasize something new like “Damage Limiting” where a monster will only take 100 points of damage in a round no matter what – unless the attacker has a certain Charm to allow her damage to count beyond the 100-point limit? Whatever new we can add some be somewhat simple to implement.

Would this be a 100 damage limit person or a 100 damage total per round? Or is it 100 damage per attack? If it's per person or attack, having something that can get around that would be good for some classes.

If it's 100 total, that just feels bad. Someone in the group gets a crit and nobody else's damage matters that round.

Jeff Martin wrote: 8) We should design ALL Mythic tokens this year, and promise not to make any new ones in the future. That way folks can make informed decisions about what to make, and they don’t have to worry about new cooler Mythic tokens showing up later. The recipes will be fixed, too. Let’s make 12 Mythic tokens – and none of which will be class-specific. They can be targeted toward Melee, Spells, Powers, Ranged, etc. – or grant powers like overcoming the “Damage Limiting” power mentioned above.

This approach makes me nervous.

It seems to me like TD is structuring mythics to be a big flash in the pan that drives a bunch of collector activity in the next year or two, and then has no enduring impact on the game. I don't get the impression that's been how TD thinks about this kind of thing - so I'm not taking that as the motive - but it seems likely to be the effect to me.

Prior messaging was of mythics being a new sort of legendary, that players could chase for years, etc..

Given the trajectory of Legendary token power level in this game, it seems inevitable that sooner or later the power level of Mythics that are frozen in time 2026 designs will be eclipsed by future Legendaries - possibly within only a few years from now. (Or a new Hyper-Quantum Rarity will have to be introduced).

I'd suggest instead:

A. Mythics, like Legendaries, will continue to come out each year. Add a new Omni-Dodecahedron transmute token than can be used in the place of a Master Transmuter follower from Safehold 1 if necessary.

B. If we absolutely must eliminate fear of missing out on Mythics, then make them each a unique Amulet of Wonder like effect, e.g.:

Mythic Seal of Solomon - unique yearly effect for magic users
Mythic Sword of Helios - unique yearly effect for Single handed melee users

And so on. Then people can craft their mythics quickly, and have no fear of missing out on later stuff, but Mythics can stay fresh and always on top of Legedaries.

Thanks for opening up the Mythic design to feedback. I have a couple thoughts:

1) Could you tell us more about your intents for the non-lethal and normal DR? Currently these two DRs have the same monster stats, would that change in the future?

2) I would approve of non-lethal becoming the new "normal." New players are often excited, but overwhelmed, and killing players in the middle of a dungeon because they or their party didn't fully understand the game sometimes kills their fun too.

3) There should still be a bridge DR between normal/non-lethal and nightmare. Otherwise new players are likely to see the significant time/money investment to jump up one difficulty and choose to not get involved.

4) I support replacing epic with mythic and upping the difficulty. Have you considered allowing mythic monsters to critical hit?

Jeff Martin wrote:
1) I want to create the "Mythic" level of Difficulty Rating that will take the place of the “Epic” DR.

Q: Why don't you just make ten Epic louder?
A: These go to eleven Mythic.


In all seriousness:

I recognize that difficulty levels are a challenging thing to get right, but they are extremely important to the game, because:

1. every player pays the same (significant) ticket price, and deserves to have a lot of fun!
2. token collections vary widely in power from zero to ludicrous, and the range expands every year as new tokens are introduced
3. some players inherently prefer a higher/riskier level of challenge than other players

I continue to support a conceptual model of difficulty levels primarily balanced around the different "price tiers" of token collection, since this variable is often constrained by players' real-life circumstances.

Normal: balanced for casual players with a ten-pack
Hardcore: balanced for players with a solid collection of rares (and some game experience)
Nightmare: balanced for players with URs
Epic: balanced for players with relics and/or legendaries
...and sure, perhaps...
Mythic: balanced for players with Mythic tokens, if those become a thing

where, if you choose the difficulty that matches your party's equipment level, you can expect to have a good time and a reasonable chance of winning. (From there, players who enjoy extra challenge can play "up" a level, and players who want less risk of failure can play "down" a level)

Adding Mythic difficulty seems like a fine idea to me; throwing away Epic for Mythic not so much. Throwing away Hardcore would be absolutely terrible (like several others so far, I'm hoping that was just a typo/oversight and not a serious intention); we need a suitable difficulty level for people who love the game and want a challenge but don't have money to spend on UR+ tokens.