TOPIC: Possible Omni Issues

In another thread, Ho-Yi Fung said:

Can an Omni Orb be used in place of an Exalted (4-star) transmute? As of writing, this only applies to the Steelclad Cloak used to make Aron's Sunhide Robe.
[...]
Widseth's Legendary Lute has two recipes. Can the Omni Orb be used in either? If so, keep the following in mind when determining the recipes:
Recipe 1 requires an additional: 5 AI 5 AP 10 DP 8 DS 10 EM 1 MH 7 MS 7 PS
Recipe 2 requires an additional: 1 Orb 1 EB

Can y'all think of any other potentially sticky areas where allowing the use of Omni Orbs and/or Omni Cubes may have unforeseen consequences?

Note: This is not a thread about the recipes for the Omnis themselves. That's a discussion for another thread on another day. Please try to stay focused on the aforementioned topic. Thank you.

The only other Legendary token with multiple recipes seems to be CoA, which is exempt from Omni recipes.

Can the Omni Orb be used in place of one of the "gear" tokens in the Totem of Heroism?

Is the current plan still for Cubes to replace relics in recipes for Legendaries, and for Orbs to replace UR and under in recipes for Legendaries that also have a Relic in the recipe? It was tweaked several times during the public development stages.

As long as it's restricted to legendary and below and not treasure box only tokens otherwise you may want to rule out marks, etc that come down the line from order bonuses. Example does let you get into Ring Con? It is a substitute for Pembleton Passage, etc.?

Mike Steele wrote: The only other Legendary token with multiple recipes seems to be CoA, which is exempt from Omni recipes.

Can the Omni Orb be used in place of one of the "gear" tokens in the Totem of Heroism?

Jeff said here that the Orb would count for Tinker's bits

Of the thirty-four Legendary tokens currently visible on TokenDB, only two have multiple recipes: Charm of Avarice (which, presumably, will continue to be disallowed as per design threads) and Widseth's Legendary Lute (called out in the opening post).

Based on the design threads, the upcoming Legendary Kilgor's +4 Savage Sword will be cheaper for anyone with a Welfor's; presumably, this means there will be a second recipe... but since Welfor's is a Legendary, such a recipe (if it should exist) would not interact with Omni items.

Of the thirty-three eligible Legendary tokens in TokenDB, the ingredient lists for them (as defined by TokenDB) require the following rarities:
* Uncommon
* Rare
* Ultra Rare
* Transmuted-Exalted (4 pt)
* Transmuted-Relic (5 pt)
* Reserve
* Trade
* Monster Trophy

(Tinkerer bits are officially classified as Monster Trophy rarity, not Common.)

Another application (though, one I would hate to nerf) is this might be used to substitute an arcane recipe for an artifact. As far as I can tell, arcane recipe isn’t a set rarity level (tokendb acts a bit weird when you search for it.)

Fred

Here is a brainstorm of things-that-could-go-wrong. All of these things have mitigation possibilities. Some are far fetched.

1. Replacing Treasure Only ingredients. If Omni items can substitute for monster bits, stalker items, totem parts, etc. it could limit future potential treasure mix transmutes to prevent them having ingredients that should be scarcer than Omni-items.

2. Potential ambiguity / difficulty for transmuters in situations where future recipes have "Any X of list of tokens."

For example, if a recipe was:

1x A
1x B
1x C
Any three unique items from: D, E, F, G, H, I, J

And a transmute bag contains: B, D, G, I, and two Omi's - is it a valid recipe? We can work out in a second or two that yes, because one of those Omni's can be an A, and one can be a C, and then all requirements are fulfilled. But this could get confusing.

3. Might mess with future "Any UR Slot-Foo" style transmutes. For example, +3 Rod of Niltongue took any UR melee weapon. If Omni-X is worth less than UR Slot-Foo type tokens, this style of recipe won't make sense.

4. Might harm TD sales on multi-year transmute tokens.

For example, if the going rate for an UR-replacing Omni item costs less than the 2023 and 2024 Greaves, some people will just transmute Omni-items instead of buying the Greaves.

5. Might inhibit future recipes like CoA #1 or Widseth's #2.

For instance, if a future new Legendary TE came around that combined:
* The Amulet of Treasure Finding
* 3 distinct Treasure Granting beads

People are going to be really, really upset if a $150 Omni item can take the place of a "Never to be reprinted" Amulet of Treasure Finding. I will say I told you so , but they will still be upset.

This could make it hard to craft recipes around highly desirable out of print tokens, or that soften the blow of changes that invalidate multiple other tokens.

That Omni can only be used to fill legendary recipes helps protect from some problems, like Arcanum or Enlightenment or other non-timeless or even timeless Safehold. Legendary sort of top level of what can be made.

However, when Mythic becomes a thing, then there's a level beyond legendary. Sure, from a technical standpoint, not likely to be a problem, but there's going to be this dissonance of perception as to why Omni helps make chaff like legendaries and not stuff of real value.

Matthew Hayward wrote: Here is a brainstorm of things-that-could-go-wrong. All of these things have mitigation possibilities. Some are far fetched.

1. Replacing Treasure Only ingredients. If Omni items can substitute for monster bits, stalker items, totem parts, etc. it could limit future potential treasure mix transmutes to prevent them having ingredients that should be scarcer than Omni-items.

2. Potential ambiguity / difficulty for transmuters in situations where future recipes have "Any X of list of tokens."

For example, if a recipe was:

1x A
1x B
1x C
Any three unique items from: D, E, F, G, H, I, J

And a transmute bag contains: B, D, G, I, and two Omi's - is it a valid recipe? We can work out in a second or two that yes, because one of those Omni's can be an A, and one can be a C, and then all requirements are fulfilled. But this could get confusing.

3. Might mess with future "Any UR Slot-Foo" style transmutes. For example, +3 Rod of Niltongue took any UR melee weapon. If Omni-X is worth less than UR Slot-Foo type tokens, this style of recipe won't make sense.

4. Might harm TD sales on multi-year transmute tokens.

For example, if the going rate for an UR-replacing Omni item costs less than the 2023 and 2024 Greaves, some people will just transmute Omni-items instead of buying the Greaves.

5. Might inhibit future recipes like CoA #1 or Widseth's #2.

For instance, if a future new Legendary TE came around that combined:
* The Amulet of Treasure Finding
* 3 distinct Treasure Granting beads

People are going to be really, really upset if a $150 Omni item can take the place of a "Never to be reprinted" Amulet of Treasure Finding. I will say I told you so , but they will still be upset.

This could make it hard to craft recipes around highly desirable out of print tokens, or that soften the blow of changes that invalidate multiple other tokens.

The way it was worded in previous iterations is that Omni's will only be usable in Legendary Recipes which would remove multi year transmutes from the equation. This also would prevent any 8k multi years from being affected as well. This takes care of concern #3 and #4 as they are Relic and Eldritch, not Legendary.

#5 is definitely a concern but going forward people will know that Omni's do exist and any Legendary tokens going forward would be subject to their usage. CoA was exempt from Omni usage in previous token wordings and TokenDB can clarify when people refer to it for Omni usage.

For items that are Treasure Only ingredients, I definitely can understand the concern especially if there is a single token of the set that limits the amount made over time but given you would need an Omni for it depending on the receipe I don't see a huge issue with it as long as people know of the possibility beforehand.

With all that I think that as long as TokenDB can clarify the edge cases we should be good to go.

Ian Lee wrote: That Omni can only be used to fill legendary recipes helps protect from some problems, like Arcanum or Enlightenment or other non-timeless or even timeless Safehold. Legendary sort of top level of what can be made.

However, when Mythic becomes a thing, then there's a level beyond legendary. Sure, from a technical standpoint, not likely to be a problem, but there's going to be this dissonance of perception as to why Omni helps make chaff like legendaries and not stuff of real value.

From what was previously stated by Jeff, at this time all Mythics will require a legendary to craft. Meaning they are part of the greater scheme in making the stuff of real value.

Kusig wrote:

Ian Lee wrote: That Omni can only be used to fill legendary recipes helps protect from some problems, like Arcanum or Enlightenment or other non-timeless or even timeless Safehold. Legendary sort of top level of what can be made.

However, when Mythic becomes a thing, then there's a level beyond legendary. Sure, from a technical standpoint, not likely to be a problem, but there's going to be this dissonance of perception as to why Omni helps make chaff like legendaries and not stuff of real value.

From what was previously stated by Jeff, at this time all Mythics will require a legendary to craft. Meaning they are part of the greater scheme in making the stuff of real value.

Real value is both subjective and not. If they way all look at things is that only top Tier have real value than that excludes over 90% of all tokens: when mythic is release it will allow many to build over time to a new level, but that doesn’t mean that with the release of Omni orb and Cube that all legendary’s will make all legendary’s worthless. Yes it will effect value as now all will be made accessible as never before, but we still don’t know the requirements to make these Omni items. And even if they are easier compared to before that is what the community asked for. I think they need to be worded carefully as to exclude everything except the crafting of Legendary items. ( excluding Eldritch, arcanum, paragon and other speciality items in the future ) it should be clearly stated for instance, you can make a bunch of the Omni and expect to craft a ROSP or RoSEC. The more clear and concise we are at explaining function and restrictions of the Omni items, we can then ensure all players go into these processes without the ability to have ill or hurt feelings not being able to do something. Unfortunately in todays day in age, if we don’t say “ you can’t make these “ there will always be others who try to find loop holes