TOPIC: Putting a bug in ear for 2023 Bard/Paladin

The two most common classes we run are Bard and Paladin. While I appreciated the Amulet of Guarding this year and Necklace of Songbird last - is there a plan for 5pt relics and Legendary neck items for these classes similar to what was done in 2019-2022 for the other classes?

Maybe Songbird and Widseth's Legendary overpowered the Bard but with Paladin I find myself having difficulty dropping Stu's for Amulet of Guarding HOWEVER combining the extra Guard with strength and dex or constitution bonuses similar to the Fighter 5pt relic and Viv's would be really helpful.

Both classes got a class relic that wasn’t a neck slot. That was a compromise giving a nod to up both class power levels since the neck slot us so competitive. Both classes now (definitely) have the charm necklace as BiS. Because most other classes have the neck slot filled - you’d think that would drop the cost for that necklace but it didn’t.

I’d recommend a reprint of the charm necklace just to help out those two classes neck year.

I dont want to argue, but Songbird and not the charm necklace would be BiS for the Bard neck - correct?

I will rethink my Paladin build and look at that neck item in my build to see what I can make happen with the extra Charm slots

ElvisPrime wrote: I dont want to argue, but Songbird and not the charm necklace would be BiS for the Bard neck - correct?

I will rethink my Paladin build and look at that neck item in my build to see what I can make happen with the extra Charm slots

It really depends on the charms you have. If you don't have enough good charms, then sure, Songbird might be best. But if you're actually talking a build that has all BiS, you assume you have the additional tokens to support the Charm Necklace.

ElvisPrime wrote: I dont want to argue, but Songbird and not the charm necklace would be BiS for the Bard neck - correct?

Yup - thing's busted.

Paladin and melee ranger are the only classes at this point where you have build variety in the neck slot at high gear levels. Everyone else is set with their legendaries.

I don't conside Songbird necessary as the only meaningful benefit to me is free monster lore, where some is useless and where bard may not even succeed at monster lore even if it did matter, and/or you already ran the dungeon and already know it.

There's no reason to further slotlock classes. Neck being more open is actually interesting.

I don't know +30 overall to party saves seems good to me.

I agree not slotlocking is better and you might just want the help on your build, but for a party where not everyone has best in slot the saves are very nice. Kind of like a slotless IS: Beryl Prism for everyone, except the Bard.

I run with a group that always goes Nightmare and sometimes goes Epic and our bards definitely use Songbird. The extra saves are always worth it

Disclaimer: I don’t play Paladin or Bard, but I do have control over the builds for the ones my husband and daughter play.

It seems like the general difference here is if you’re looking at what helps you the most, or your team the most. Songbird might not do much for the Bard in specific, but does a ton for the group as a whole. Amulet of Guarding technically does nothing for the Paladin at all, but my husband won’t give it up because he wants to guard that extra person, no matter how nice three extra charm slots would be (which, by the way, is VERY NICE). So maybe the original poster here is hoping for something that combines those elements, instead of making the player choose between a team-forward build or a character-focused one?

It's not necessarily about what helps me the most or what helps the team the most. In multiple types of VTD combat over the past couple of years there have been times that Paladin is unable to guard because of the manner in which an attack is happening / type of enemy.

That invalidates the Amulet of Guarding which only offers that and nothing else. When I look at the other class-specific BiS neck slots - they typically offer multiple capabilities. So I would be fine with an Amulet of Guarding Relic or Legenday that offers additional grace and maybe additional LoH points or some other team boosting capability rather than boosting my own stats.

I'm not sure I've seen monster attacks that prevent Barbarian Rage, Cleric from using Divine Intervention or restoring a spell/power, Druid from using a spell while polymorphed, etc. But perhaps I have not paid enough attention to hear that (granted if we are bound, stunned or otherwise encumbered we can often lose the ability to use many abilities)

I also see the concern that because of the locked slot with class specific neck items, many neck items may not see the light of day again, i was only looking at the precedent for all other classes.

Based on what I'm hearing the best thing we can focus on here for Bard is Songbird and with Paladin it's an extra Guard (if the room/monster allows it) or charms. There does not seem to be community support for giving character specialized Relic or Legendaries for Bards and Paladins. If I want those, I should play the other classes 😉 I can accept that answer!

ElvisPrime wrote: It's not necessarily about what helps me the most or what helps the team the most. In multiple types of VTD combat over the past couple of years there have been times that Paladin is unable to guard because of the manner in which an attack is happening / type of enemy.

That invalidates the Amulet of Guarding which only offers that and nothing else. When I look at the other class-specific BiS neck slots - they typically offer multiple capabilities. So I would be fine with an Amulet of Guarding Relic or Legenday that offers additional grace and maybe additional LoH points or some other team boosting capability rather than boosting my own stats.

I'm not sure I've seen monster attacks that prevent Barbarian Rage, Cleric from using Divine Intervention or restoring a spell/power, Druid from using a spell while polymorphed, etc. But perhaps I have not paid enough attention to hear that (granted if we are bound, stunned or otherwise encumbered we can often lose the ability to use many abilities)

I also see the concern that because of the locked slot with class specific neck items, many neck items may not see the light of day again, i was only looking at the precedent for all other classes.

Based on what I'm hearing the best thing we can focus on here for Bard is Songbird and with Paladin it's an extra Guard (if the room/monster allows it) or charms. There does not seem to be community support for giving character specialized Relic or Legendaries for Bards and Paladins. If I want those, I should play the other classes 😉 I can accept that answer!

But Paladin and Bard did get class specific relic/legendaries just not in the neck slot +3 Holy Avenger/Ava's +5 Holy Avenger and Lute of Free Fury/Widseth's Legendary Lute were done for Pally and Bard, while the other classes got a neck slot item.

So not sure what you think they are missing out on. Ava's gives a extra guard once per game, so if you have Amulet of Guarding, one fight you can guard 3 or drop Amulet of Guarding and you still get to guard 2 in the boss fight. Then the Bards got an extra bonus in the Necklace of the Songbird which is probably like UR or even Relic level power.

If Jeff decides to do another round of class specific relic/legendaries then everyone should get a 2nd one. Bard and Pally could get necks. Wizards could get spellbooks or something, others could get weapons or something cool in another slot. But my guess is Jeff will wait a while before introducing more class specifics at the top end.

Hallie Smith wrote: Disclaimer: I don’t play Paladin or Bard, but I do have control over the builds for the ones my husband and daughter play.

It seems like the general difference here is if you’re looking at what helps you the most, or your team the most. Songbird might not do much for the Bard in specific, but does a ton for the group as a whole. Amulet of Guarding technically does nothing for the Paladin at all, but my husband won’t give it up because he wants to guard that extra person, no matter how nice three extra charm slots would be (which, by the way, is VERY NICE). So maybe the original poster here is hoping for something that combines those elements, instead of making the player choose between a team-forward build or a character-focused one?

Very well summarized Hallie. It depends on what you value more.