TOPIC: Assassin’s crossbow reprint breakout thread

Suggestion:
If assassins crossbow is reprinted the 3x damage modifier should be moved to natural 20 only.

The reason:
Damage dealt by the rogue on 2x sneak attacks per room with an expanded crit range of 17-20 pushes them well beyond where the class should be. Per one poster’s count, the damage placed the rogue at roughly top 4 in class damage, with non ammo damage at 120-135 and ammo damage as high as 168.

Reference thread:
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=569&id=245490

As a class that is primarily about the rogue box (ex a puzzle room class), my feeling is that the rogue has plenty of class identity, and doesn’t need to be above bottom 3 in damage.

Reference thread
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=5&id=251388#370595

I feel that switching the assassins crossbow to 3x on natural 20 would still give the opportunity for surprise, high spike damage without the consistency to push the class into the higher damage tiers.

In your view, who should be in the higher damage tiers and why?

I'm hesitant to support nerfing this. I'm not sure it's needed.

We just saw the addition of the lenses of agility and I'm sure a number of rogues PYP'd that token so they could get their hands on this build.

How does this perform compared to a build that lets you double the sneak damage on a crit with +2 nightshade build or a rogue with a viper strike set? Should viper set and nightshade's be nerfed to only work on 20's too?

This rogue build damage rank might also get knocked down a few pegs with the addition of Wizard and Fighter class tokens this year.

Lequinian wrote: In your view, who should be in the higher damage tiers and why?

See this thread:
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=5&id=251388#370595

The sneak attack damage doesn't get doubled (or tripled) from a crit unless you are using nightshade's shortsword or viper strike set. So, it is only the wheel plus ranged +damage that gets tripled. So, melee is still going to outdamage ranged. No nerf needed.

Also, if it does get nerfed, I want to swap mine for a different UR (probably mighty shortbow).

kurtreznor wrote: The sneak attack damage doesn't get doubled (or tripled) from a crit unless you are using nightshade's shortsword or viper strike set. So, it is only the wheel plus ranged +damage that gets tripled. So, melee is still going to outdamage ranged. No nerf needed.

Agreed. The damage wheel on the +2 Assassin’s Crossbow only goes from 4-9, and it’s not that easy for a Rogue to boost based ranged damage. So the amount that can be tripled isn’t that big. Plus, the Rogue typically gets two sneak attacks at most per combat. It’s not like a ranged Rogue can do 100+ points of damage every round.

BeLinda Mathie wrote:

kurtreznor wrote: The sneak attack damage doesn't get doubled (or tripled) from a crit unless you are using nightshade's shortsword or viper strike set. So, it is only the wheel plus ranged +damage that gets tripled. So, melee is still going to outdamage ranged. No nerf needed.

Agreed. The damage wheel on the +2 Assassin’s Crossbow only goes from 4-9, and it’s not that easy for a Rogue to boost based ranged damage. So the amount that can be tripled isn’t that big. Plus, the Rogue typically gets two sneak attacks at most per combat. It’s not like a ranged Rogue can do 100+ points of damage every round.

According to Fred’s thread, the ranged rogue is doing 125 / round twice / room, more with ammo with the assassins crossbow. Is this incorrect?

Endgame wrote:

BeLinda Mathie wrote:

kurtreznor wrote: The sneak attack damage doesn't get doubled (or tripled) from a crit unless you are using nightshade's shortsword or viper strike set. So, it is only the wheel plus ranged +damage that gets tripled. So, melee is still going to outdamage ranged. No nerf needed.

Agreed. The damage wheel on the +2 Assassin’s Crossbow only goes from 4-9, and it’s not that easy for a Rogue to boost based ranged damage. So the amount that can be tripled isn’t that big. Plus, the Rogue typically gets two sneak attacks at most per combat. It’s not like a ranged Rogue can do 100+ points of damage every round.

According to Fred’s thread, the ranged rogue is doing 125 / round twice / room, more with ammo with the assassins crossbow. Is this incorrect?

The disparity only increases as new ranged damage tokens are added.

I am of the mind that we just avoid reprinting GoFF and Assassin's Crossbow. Let the ones in existence be grandfathered and try to keep tokens more balanced moving forward.

Endgame wrote: Reference thread
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=5&id=251388#370595

Looks like his build's damage is: 7 (avg weapon) + 28 + 20 SA
- AC's x3 is 21+84+20 for 125 (ignoring bolts and oils - otherwise we need to juice the other builds too)

In VTD he'll average - 4x125+5x55+1x0 = 77.5 for the first 2 rounds - I don't see that as broken for an 8k build. (Matt can do the math for sliding...) Your suggestion makes it 67 (1x125+3x90+5x55+1x0).

Let's talk about bringing back the ranged ranger and making monk players juggle while rolling in VTD.

Endgame wrote: Suggestion:
If assassins crossbow is reprinted the 3x damage modifier should be moved to natural 20 only.

The reason:
Damage dealt by the rogue on 2x sneak attacks per room with an expanded crit range of 17-20 pushes them well beyond where the class should be. Per one poster’s count, the damage placed the rogue at roughly top 4 in class damage, with non ammo damage at 120-135 and ammo damage as high as 168.

Reference thread:
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=569&id=245490

The math in that thread says: "Base crit damage is 78+20 (sneak)+3 times weapon damage (average of 6). The net result is 120-135 per attack on crits."

There is a slight error there, really it's 110-125 with an average of 117:
* The damage on the +2 Assassin's Crossbow is: 4, 5, 6, 6, 8, 9. The average is 6 1/3.
* The ranged damage bonus of that build is 26.
* A 3x crit will give: (Weapon damage + Ranged Damage Mod)*3 + Sneak Attack Bonus.

Which is (3x Crit):
Minimum: (4+26)*3+20 = 110
Maximum: (9+26)*3+20 = 125
Average: (6 1/3 + 26)*3+20 = 117.

Lets just take the average of 117, 2/room, on a slide of 17+.

On slides 16 or less that are a hit, they deal: 26+6 1/3 = 32 1/3.

Let's compare with Barbarian, Monk, (Not Fighter as they don't have a legendary yet) and see if Rogue is much greater (e.g. 25% or more), much less (e.g. 75% or less), or about the same.

Barbarian:

Has Bogs and Bracers of Guided Strike to ensure the Crit math doesn't get funky.

Barbarian Melee damage: +40
Barbarian is using +5 Deathcleaver with average damage of: 12.83 damage

Bog's gives Greater Rage for a second room, and twice per game Fury turns a slid non-crit hit into a crit (and does nothing on a miss).

If a Barb slides a 17 and hits they do: 40+12.83 = 52.83 (lets call it 53)
If they are under Greater Rage = 59 (118 crit)
Without greater rage = 53 (106 crit)

To-hit Cases:
1-16: On hits in this rage the Barbarian does a lot more 53-59 vs 30.
20: Crits are pretty much the same 106-118 for the Barbarian and 117 for the Rogue with SA, and 97 without
17-19:
* Barbarian does a lot more if they do Fury and there is no SA
* Barbarian does more with no Fury and no SA
* Rogue does more if they do SA and there is no Fury
* They do about the same with Fury and SA

It really depends on what is happening more in combat:
* Hits on 16 and lower plus hits on 17-19 without SA but with Fury, or
* Hits on 17-19 with SA but no Fury.

If the former is happening more Barbarian wins. If they later is happening more Rogue wins. If both events are happening with similar frequency, two two classes are about the same.

Monk:

Has Benrow's and Bracers of Guided Strike to make sure the Crit math doesn't get funky.

Monk Melee damage: +37, crit on 19-20 and Wields +5 Viper Strike Fang with average damage 10.5. Let's just call the average hit damage 48.

I'm just going to use VTD math here to avoid arguing about hit rates, and assume an 11-20 is a hit for both classes.

Monk possible damage results:
1% chance Double Miss = 0
14% chance Miss and Hit = 48
49% chance Double Hit = 96
4% chance Miss and Crit = 96
28% chance Hit and Crit = 144
4% chance Double Crit = 192
Expected damage per round: 101.28 (we'll call it 100).

Rogue possible damage results:
10% miss chance = 0
50% hit chance on a slide of 11-16, of these:
--Let's say the Rogue Sneak Attacks on half the combat rounds, then half the time 52 1/3
--And half the time 32 1/3
10% Natural 20 crit chance, of these:
--Let's say the Rogue Sneak Attacks on half the combat rounds, then half the time 117
--And half the time 97
30% chance to slide a 17-19, of these:
--Let's say the Rogue Sneak Attacks on half the combat rounds, then half the time: 117
--And half the time 32 /13

Expected damage per round: 54.26.

The Monk can tell the Rogue is really trying, and it's adorable.

TL;DR: Do we need to nerf the +2 Assassin's Crossbow when similarly geared Monks do substantially more damage, and it's not clear who will do more damage, Rogues or Barbarians?

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Endgame wrote: Suggestion:
If assassins crossbow is reprinted the 3x damage modifier should be moved to natural 20 only.

The reason:
Damage dealt by the rogue on 2x sneak attacks per room with an expanded crit range of 17-20 pushes them well beyond where the class should be. Per one poster’s count, the damage placed the rogue at roughly top 4 in class damage, with non ammo damage at 120-135 and ammo damage as high as 168.

Reference thread:
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=569&id=245490

The math in that thread says: "Base crit damage is 78+20 (sneak)+3 times weapon damage (average of 6). The net result is 120-135 per attack on crits."

There is a slight error there, really it's 110-125 with an average of 117:
* The damage on the +2 Assassin's Crossbow is: 4, 5, 6, 6, 8, 9. The average is 6 1/3.
* The ranged damage bonus of that build is 26.
* A 3x crit will give: (Weapon damage + Ranged Damage Mod)*3 + Sneak Attack Bonus.

Which is (3x Crit):
Minimum: (4+26)*3+20 = 110
Maximum: (9+26)*3+20 = 125
Average: (6 1/3 + 26)*3+20 = 117.

Lets just take the average of 117, 2/room, on a slide of 17+.

On slides 16 or less that are a hit, they deal: 26+6 1/3 = 32 1/3.

Let's compare with Barbarian, Monk, (Not Fighter as they don't have a legendary yet) and see if Rogue is much greater (e.g. 25% or more), much less (e.g. 75% or less), or about

...snip...

TL;DR: Do we need to nerf the +2 Assassin's Crossbow when similarly geared Monks do substantially more damage, and it's not clear who will do more damage, Rogues or Barbarians?

Depends on your POV on global class balance. Mine is that the rogue has strong non combat perks and should be competing with the cleric for damage. Not everyone gets to be in the top damage running.

If you do not agree with my assessment on class balance, then we will not agree that the rogue could be knocked back considerably on damage.

Why are we suggesting nerfing a weapon when we literally just got a legendary item providing that ability?

Who cares what a maxed out player can do, most of us don't have maxed out players and will not ever come anywhere near it. This is all theoretical.

In my opinion we shouldnt have any class restrictions, all damage should be identical between all classes and total damage should be completely based on sliding skill.