TOPIC: Attribute Design

Let’s talk attributes and character redesign - because what else is there to do when your locked down and sheltering in place? TPTB may already have a fully formed plan, in which case this post is probably useless, but if they are still mulling things over, maybe it will help.

I believe that decisions regarding attributes should be made prior to the character card redesign, so that way the attributes can be baked into the new cards. We currently stand with major established bonuses for str, Dex, Con, and minor bonuses for Wis and cha. Given this, we should flesh out the bonuses for Wis and Cha, and create one for Int. At this time, I think we probably leave str, Dex, and con alone, unless someone has an awesome idea to consider.

I’ve seen numerous suggestions for Int, wis, and cha, and have my own ideas, which I’m trying to collect below. I’m sure I’ve missed a few, so please post them, and I’ll add them to the list.

Slot expansion.
Add more beads for wisdom, create the tome slot and add more tomes for int, add additional figurines for cha as cha increases.

Pros, rolls the bonus into a token based answer, both to increase the attributes, then fill the new slots. This should sell more tokens as well.

Cons, slot creep (potentially makes the game less appealing to new players going all in on tokens), power creep, character generator updates to track a potentially large number of additional slots that most will not use.

Static modifier.
Add +spell healing for wisdom, +spell damage for int, +scroll effectiveness for cha (+damage, +heal)

Pros: increases spell effects, Can create new tokens that increase these 3 attributes, and scrolls get a boost perhaps encouraging more consumable use during runs.

Cons: likely competes poorly with focus items - ex, +2 wisdom gloves (+1 Healing) and gloves of focus (+1 Healing and damage). Some existing tokens have extremely high modifiers that need to be accounted for (Charm of Enlightenment).

Skill check modifier:
replace +3 Healing or damage with bonus based on attribute.

pros - reinforces an existing mechanic (skill check), allows skill checks to scale via difficulty (higher difficulty play will likely have more and better tokens), offers a risk / reward option for players who want it (build for skill checks instead of focus), Opens skill check consumables as a viable token type at higher difficulties.

Cons - would need to scale 2x over focus to be desirable in a slot (+4 wis for rare gloves vs gloves of focus), which could inflate will saves. Does not further address cha, so the static benefit would likely need to be used for cha, Can lead to power creep for people who do not fail skill checks.

Of all of these options, I think my current preference is for skill check modifier. It opens a play style, adds build variety (do you build for skill check, focus, or both?), adds a reason to use new consumables, and it works well with existing tokens (Charm of enlightenment, sun hide robe).

I have some thoughts on character design that I’ll post in another day or two, but I thought maybe this would be a good place to start

I'd like to see the AC and Reflex saves be derived from the higher of DEX or INT, unless you are wearing wearing heavy armor (heavy armor could be defined as a torso slot item that is only usable by Cleric, Fighters, and Paladin).

Another idea for casters anyway is additional spells (or re-casting of spells) for high WIS/INT.

Extra spells, on a per class basis dnd style (based on int for wiz, Cha for bard, etc).

For extra slots, print the target stat number in the square on the card. For a potentially preparable spell, print the target stat number by the spell name.

I like the use of int to determine how many tomes you can carry with a limit of 2 or 3 max.

I like the use of chr to determine how many figurines you can use with a limit of 2 or 3 max.

I like the use of wis to determine how many beads you can use with a limit of 2 or 3 max.

I like the use of int for wizards, wis for clerics/druids, and chr for bards if the stat exceeds say 20-22 to autopass skill checks.

Running out of spells is hard to do in my experience. Even casting an extra one with bracelet of the zerphyr in combat rooms I still have 2+ left after a nightmare/epic run.

Limiting Ioun Stones is problematic as we will soon have three treasure enhancing stones.

So a limit that would prevent the use of all three...

Torches and pitchforks.

Besides CHA is already used for another slot

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'd like to see the AC and Reflex saves be derived from the higher of DEX or INT, unless you are wearing wearing heavy armor (heavy armor could be defined as a torso slot item that is only usable by Cleric, Fighters, and Paladin).

Another idea for casters anyway is additional spells (or re-casting of spells) for high WIS/INT.

Hey Matthew,
I’m having trouble following your logic on how A/C is influenced by INT. Could you walk me through it?

Harlax wrote: Limiting Ioun Stones is problematic as we will soon have three treasure enhancing stones.

So a limit that would prevent the use of all three...

Torches and pitchforks.

Besides CHA is already used for another slot

Every year for the past 6(?) years I have been requesting all the Volunteer Ioun Stones be allowed to be transmuted into one singular Noun Stone. That will free up a lot of Ioun Stones.

Bob Chasan wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'd like to see the AC and Reflex saves be derived from the higher of DEX or INT, unless you are wearing wearing heavy armor (heavy armor could be defined as a torso slot item that is only usable by Cleric, Fighters, and Paladin).

Another idea for casters anyway is additional spells (or re-casting of spells) for high WIS/INT.

It's not an uncommon feat in D&D systems to allow INT to effect AC instead of DEX. The game logic appears to be that intelligence helps you dodge better (e.g. predicting where the blows will land, instead of reacting to where the blows are heading).

No more stats that go towards bonus slots, please. Charisma is already a wasted stat: a better goal is to have each stat contribute -something- to the player by itself, without needing other tokens to make it worth investing in.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Bob Chasan wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'd like to see the AC and Reflex saves be derived from the higher of DEX or INT, unless you are wearing wearing heavy armor (heavy armor could be defined as a torso slot item that is only usable by Cleric, Fighters, and Paladin).

Another idea for casters anyway is additional spells (or re-casting of spells) for high WIS/INT.

It's not an uncommon feat in D&D systems to allow INT to effect AC instead of DEX. The game logic appears to be that intelligence helps you dodge better (e.g. predicting where the blows will land, instead of reacting to where the blows are heading).

Cool thanks. I had no idea

isauteikisa wrote: No more stats that go towards bonus slots, please. Charisma is already a wasted stat: a better goal is to have each stat contribute -something- to the player by itself, without needing other tokens to make it worth investing in.

I agree entirely that the solution should not be bonus slots.

My preferred proposal is the skill check modifier one, though perhaps I didn’t make that clear in the OP?

+1 to the skill check modification. I have always liked the idea of it compared to other solutions.