TOPIC: Rule question for Paladins Grace and other saving throw weirdness

So I am going to throw out some scenarios here because I am not entirely sure as a DM how some of this should work. Lets say two party members are equipped with a Questor’s Charm of Luck, one of them is a paladin and he also has the Legendary Holy Avenger the other is a bard also equipping the Figurine of Power: Cat and Widseth’s Legendary Lute.

Lets just look at each token and see how they affect saves.

Widseth’s Legendary Lute: Once per game, if a party saving throw is rolled and a “1, 2, or 3” is the result, the bard may call for a re-roll.
Figurine of Power: Cat: Once per game, the owner of this item may re-roll any failed saving throw, but must take the result of the second roll.
Questor’s Charm of Luck: Adds +1 to all saving throws and the player is allowed to re-roll any saving throw result of 1–even if consecutive 1s are rolled.
Ava's +5 Holy Avenger: Either once (relic) or twice (legendary) per game, a paladin may instantly activated her "Grace" power to allow the roll of TWO d20 dice for any saving throw and take the higher result. Whether Grace is used to affect a multi-person saving throw roll or an individual's saving throw is up to the paladin. The use of Grace must be declared before the die is rolled.

So rules questions and scenarios in order below.

1. Group vs Individual Save, is this still a thing? I thought when the DM at this point asks for a save one roll applys to whoever had to make it. Does Questor’s Charm of Luck affect the entire party save or just that individual who had it?

2. When two specific rules are in use, the bard fails a reflex and rolled a 4 initially, using the Figurine of the Cat allowing another save to be rolled, lets just say that save was a 1, does Questor’s Charm of Luck immeditally take affect or are you now forced to take the 1?

3. If the grace affect is used to get 2d20 and one of them is a 1 can Questor’s Charm of Luck apply to that roll and allow you to reroll it to see which 20 you take. Could Widseth’s Legendary Lute be used on a 1,2,3 of that roll to allow a reroll of that save if both rolls failed to save?

4. Lets say a specific player has been poisoned, they fail their first roll on a 4, they then use Anti-Toxin to get another roll and that roll is a 1, that person had Questor’s Charm of Luck and then declarers he is going to reroll. The paladin then says he is going to use his grace ability to allow the person to roll 2d20 is this allowed? The initial save has failed but he is declaring it before the roll?

James J Krot wrote: So I am going to throw out some scenarios here because I am not entirely sure as a DM how some of this should work. Lets say two party members are equipped with a Questor’s Charm of Luck, one of them is a paladin and he also has the Legendary Holy Avenger the other is a bard also equipping the Figurine of Power: Cat and Widseth’s Legendary Lute.

Lets just look at each token and see how they affect saves.

Widseth’s Legendary Lute: Once per game, if a party saving throw is rolled and a “1, 2, or 3” is the result, the bard may call for a re-roll.
Figurine of Power: Cat: Once per game, the owner of this item may re-roll any failed saving throw, but must take the result of the second roll.
Questor’s Charm of Luck: Adds +1 to all saving throws and the player is allowed to re-roll any saving throw result of 1–even if consecutive 1s are rolled.
Ava's +5 Holy Avenger: Either once (relic) or twice (legendary) per game, a paladin may instantly activated her "Grace" power to allow the roll of TWO d20 dice for any saving throw and take the higher result. Whether Grace is used to affect a multi-person saving throw roll or an individual's saving throw is up to the paladin. The use of Grace must be declared before the die is rolled.

So rules questions and scenarios in order below.

1. Group vs Individual Save, is this still a thing? I thought when the DM at this point asks for a save one roll applys to whoever had to make it. Does Questor’s Charm of Luck affect the entire party save or just that individual who had it?

2. When two specific rules are in use, the bard fails a reflex and rolled a 4 initially, using the Figurine of the Cat allowing another save to be rolled, lets just say that save was a 1, does Questor’s Charm of Luck immeditally take affect or are you now forced to take the 1?

3. If the grace affect is used to get 2d20 and one of them is a 1 can Questor’s Charm of Luck apply to that roll and allow you to reroll it to see which 20 you take. Could Widseth’s Legendary Lute be used on a 1,2,3 of that roll to allow a reroll of that save if both rolls failed to save?

4. Lets say a specific player has been poisoned, they fail their first roll on a 4, they then use Anti-Toxin to get another roll and that roll is a 1, that person had Questor’s Charm of Luck and then declarers he is going to reroll. The paladin then says he is going to use his grace ability to allow the person to roll 2d20 is this allowed? The initial save has failed but he is declaring it before the roll?

So, im not official, but i was a magic judge for almost 10 years and very good with rules, so....

1. I think group saves need to be better codified. I dont like them, but i know they save time. My OPINION on how questors should work in a group save is: anyone without questors has to take the 1 roll. Everyone with questors should get a single re-roll that applies to all of them.

2. The cat needs clarification; is the 'must take 2nd roll' a drawback preventing any other effects? Or is it a clarification that you cant change your mind and use the first roll if the 2nd is worse.

3. Grace specifies that you take the higher result. So, i would rule that the low number is never considered for other effects. The only time that low number exists is while you are still resolving grace, all other effects will only ever see the higher number output from grace. So, no re-roll, unless both numbers are low enough to trigger.

4. I would say yes, allow grace. I dont see any reason it wouldnt be allowed 're-rolls' are a subset of 'rolls'.

kurtreznor wrote:

James J Krot wrote: So I am going to throw out some scenarios here because I am not entirely sure as a DM how some of this should work. Lets say two party members are equipped with a Questor’s Charm of Luck, one of them is a paladin and he also has the Legendary Holy Avenger the other is a bard also equipping the Figurine of Power: Cat and Widseth’s Legendary Lute.

Lets just look at each token and see how they affect saves.

Widseth’s Legendary Lute: Once per game, if a party saving throw is rolled and a “1, 2, or 3” is the result, the bard may call for a re-roll.
Figurine of Power: Cat: Once per game, the owner of this item may re-roll any failed saving throw, but must take the result of the second roll.
Questor’s Charm of Luck: Adds +1 to all saving throws and the player is allowed to re-roll any saving throw result of 1–even if consecutive 1s are rolled.
Ava's +5 Holy Avenger: Either once (relic) or twice (legendary) per game, a paladin may instantly activated her "Grace" power to allow the roll of TWO d20 dice for any saving throw and take the higher result. Whether Grace is used to affect a multi-person saving throw roll or an individual's saving throw is up to the paladin. The use of Grace must be declared before the die is rolled.

So rules questions and scenarios in order below.

1. Group vs Individual Save, is this still a thing? I thought when the DM at this point asks for a save one roll applys to whoever had to make it. Does Questor’s Charm of Luck affect the entire party save or just that individual who had it?

2. When two specific rules are in use, the bard fails a reflex and rolled a 4 initially, using the Figurine of the Cat allowing another save to be rolled, lets just say that save was a 1, does Questor’s Charm of Luck immeditally take affect or are you now forced to take the 1?

3. If the grace affect is used to get 2d20 and one of them is a 1 can Questor’s Charm of Luck apply to that roll and allow you to reroll it to see which 20 you take. Could Widseth’s Legendary Lute be used on a 1,2,3 of that roll to allow a reroll of that save if both rolls failed to save?

4. Lets say a specific player has been poisoned, they fail their first roll on a 4, they then use Anti-Toxin to get another roll and that roll is a 1, that person had Questor’s Charm of Luck and then declarers he is going to reroll. The paladin then says he is going to use his grace ability to allow the person to roll 2d20 is this allowed? The initial save has failed but he is declaring it before the roll?

So, im not official, but i was a magic judge for almost 10 years and very good with rules, so....

1. I think group saves need to be better codified. I dont like them, but i know they save time. My OPINION on how questors should work in a group save is: anyone without questors has to take the 1 roll. Everyone with questors should get a single re-roll that applies to all of them.

2. The cat needs clarification; is the 'must take 2nd roll' a drawback preventing any other effects? Or is it a clarification that you cant change your mind and use the first roll if the 2nd is worse.

3. Grace specifies that you take the higher result. So, i would rule that the low number is never considered for other effects. The only time that low number exists is while you are still resolving grace, all other effects will only ever see the higher number output from grace. So, no re-roll, unless both numbers are low enough to trigger.

4. I would say yes, allow grace. I dont see any reason it wouldnt be allowed 're-rolls' are a subset of 'rolls'.

Oddly enough I too was a magic judge for about that length of time. Also, not official, but my interpretation.

1. Questor's only applies to those who equip it. Whether each player gets their own reroll or all players use one is not 100% clear, but if we are doing group saves for the party, it makes sense to me to do a group reroll.

2. FoP: Cat means you have to take the second result if it is worse. If it is worse, and a 1, I think you can then reroll it with Questor's.

3. I would say no, as the final result is not a 1, unless the Paladin chooses that for some reason (which I can see). I actually don't remember if Grace is a choice or take the highest.

4. Grace can be applied before any roll or reroll.

Other questions
Does a save with Grace that gets rerolled still have grace? I would think not.

If the paladin uses grace, can they choose the lower result in order to allow the bard to use their legendary power?

Grace specifically says take the higher power but I just didn't know if a 1 triggered on the grace.

I cast Summon Druegar 8th Lvl Spell, I would like to see some clarifications on this for gencon because this is going to see more Questor’s Charm of Luck for the dms. Grace won't really bother us till next year but how the charm affects party vs individual saves.

This should probably be asked regarding only current tokens in the gm forums and rulings given out to everyone after. I’m sure tokendb covers some of the interactions, if not all.

• When a group saving throw is rolled, a specific individual's mulligan may not be used to re-roll the group save. I.e., the mulligan only affects the individual.
• When one or more players want to utilize their personal mulligan to re-roll their individual result from a group saving throw result, a single mulligan re-roll will be done and its results shall be applied to only those individuals who used a mulligan.
• Unless the TDb specifically says a mulligan effect affects the whole group's saving throw (e.g., Widseth's Legendary Lute), a mulligan only affects the individual who has the token.

Did I miss anything?

Druegar wrote:

• When a group saving throw is rolled, a specific individual's mulligan may not be used to re-roll the group save. I.e., the mulligan only affects the individual.
• When one or more players want to utilize their personal mulligan to re-roll their individual result from a group saving throw result, a single mulligan re-roll will be done and its results shall be applied to only those individuals who used a mulligan.
• Unless the TDb specifically says a mulligan effect affects the whole group's saving throw (e.g., Widseth's Legendary Lute), a mulligan only affects the individual who has the token.

Did I miss anything?

Thanks Druegar that covers it for this year rules .

macXdmg wrote: This should probably be asked regarding only current tokens in the gm forums and rulings given out to everyone after. I’m sure tokendb covers some of the interactions, if not all.

For some reason I am not in the GM forums but in the Coach forums still, so *shrug*.

James J Krot wrote: For some reason I am not in the GM forums but in the Coach forums still

I just tweaked your account. Please log out and back in again.
Better?

Druegar wrote:

• When one or more players want to utilize their personal mulligan to re-roll their individual result from a group saving throw result, a single mulligan re-roll will be done and its results shall be applied to only those individuals who used a mulligan.

This part seems difficult to adjudicate in the dungeon. Assuming everyone has to decide to mulligan or not before the re-roll happens, how long do you give people to make and announce that choice?

How do things like this interact?
Questor’s Charm of Luck - mulligan triggered when a 1 is rolled
Figurine of Power: Cat - mulligan triggered when a person fails a save

Druegar wrote:

• When a group saving throw is rolled, a specific individual's mulligan may not be used to re-roll the group save. I.e., the mulligan only affects the individual.
• When one or more players want to utilize their personal mulligan to re-roll their individual result from a group saving throw result, a single mulligan re-roll will be done and its results shall be applied to only those individuals who used a mulligan.
• Unless the TDb specifically says a mulligan effect affects the whole group's saving throw (e.g., Widseth's Legendary Lute), a mulligan only affects the individual who has the token.

Did I miss anything?

Same deal with fop:scarab then and all of the questions in that thread? It is only applied to the wearer?