TOPIC: Token Prices plummet?

Dave wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Mongo64 wrote: That also works in reverse. Having spent money for some Eldritch and legendary tokens,,, I will not play in a sealed pack adventure. One of the things that needs to happen is higher XP value awarded for Epic. Higher value tokens would be needed for reasonable survival so higher demand would help maintain higher token prices.

I think the concern is that if Epic had an increased reward like XP, there might be players pressuring other players to play Epic mode even if they didn't want to and/or weren't prepared for that difficulty level. As I understand, that was the main reason for TD to equalize rewards among most difficulty levels.

Sadly, this has been true in the past. Any reward for a higher level of difficulty leads to some coercion (no matter how well intentioned) to play a higher level. This can lead to bad experiences for newer players. And I just don't see any good solution.

But I do agree that some incentive to collect higher level tokens is needed. I'm hoping mythic level can help with that.

There seemed to be a lot of pushback on Mythic introducing unique penalties and new tokens to deal with those penalties. Perhaps the Mythic tokens can be more powerful versions of Legendary tokens, but still retain the "can only be used on Mythic level" restriction. Hopefully Mythic level can still have some unique aspects to make it more than just another higher difficulty level.

Personally I really liked the original design of the Mythic level, even though I'll admire from a distance as I'll never have a Mythic (or Epic for that matter) build.

I think its different to offer additional XP (which can only be earned once) more than additional participation tokens or loot.
People who both
A. Play at Epic
B. only play 1/von

Are going to coordinate in advance.

This isn't treasure stamps or even participation tokens.

More XP for epic has some merit as an idea.

Mike Steele wrote:

Mongo64 wrote: That also works in reverse. Having spent money for some Eldritch and legendary tokens,,, I will not play in a sealed pack adventure. One of the things that needs to happen is higher XP value awarded for Epic. Higher value tokens would be needed for reasonable survival so higher demand would help maintain higher token prices.

I think the concern is that if Epic had an increased reward like XP, there might be players pressuring other players to play Epic mode even if they didn't want to and/or weren't prepared for that difficulty level. As I understand, that was the main reason for TD to equalize rewards among most difficulty levels.

If the concern is that people will be pushed into playing higher levels than they are ready for, put a player level limit on it.
Nightmare = 6th+
Epic = 8th+
If someone on that run can't prove they are that level, you can't play it. If you join a PUG at GenCon in the hopes of playing Epic and not everyone is 8th+ then I guess you're not playing Epic.

way off track now.

i have seen many pugs have pressure applied to under prepared players to run on harder levels more then i can count. loaning of tokens, sometimes isn't a factor. the players got their builds and have really learned the dynamics of their groups builds, then new stuff comes along at the last minute...

myself, i'll play whatever level the group decides. WE, as a community, need to do everything we can to bring in new people and make sure they have a great experience.

higher xp at higher difficulty will make it worse.

as for price plummet... vtd has put a ton more tokens out there. supply and demand.

Grizwald wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Mongo64 wrote: That also works in reverse. Having spent money for some Eldritch and legendary tokens,,, I will not play in a sealed pack adventure. One of the things that needs to happen is higher XP value awarded for Epic. Higher value tokens would be needed for reasonable survival so higher demand would help maintain higher token prices.

I think the concern is that if Epic had an increased reward like XP, there might be players pressuring other players to play Epic mode even if they didn't want to and/or weren't prepared for that difficulty level. As I understand, that was the main reason for TD to equalize rewards among most difficulty levels.

If the concern is that people will be pushed into playing higher levels than they are ready for, put a player level limit on it.
Nightmare = 6th+
Epic = 8th+
If someone on that run can't prove they are that level, you can't play it. If you join a PUG at GenCon in the hopes of playing Epic and not everyone is 8th+ then I guess you're not playing Epic.

I'm not sure there is a strong correlation between player level and preferred difficulty level. I was one of the top five XP players up through 10th level, but we never had the build or desire to play Epic. I'm sure there are many other 8th plus level players that are similar. There are probably newer players that aren't 8th level that do want to play Epic.

smakdown wrote: myself, i'll play whatever level the group decides. WE, as a community, need to do everything we can to bring in new people and make sure they have a great experience.

I'll throw in my $0.02.

I've taken all of my GenCon friends on TD runs with me, hoping to expand our group and EVERY SINGLE YEAR we get some "high level" player running in last minute DEMANDING a specific class because they "only" have one build.
We've also had coercion for both difficulty level and one really awkward exchange where they were trying to force their TE's on us in "exchange" for the best draws...

Couple that with the increasing price and I can't get anyone to play more than one year.....

In general I've loved the TD groups we've run with but every year "something" happens.... One bad apple. I don't know how to fix that.

Michael S wrote:

smakdown wrote: myself, i'll play whatever level the group decides. WE, as a community, need to do everything we can to bring in new people and make sure they have a great experience.

I'll throw in my $0.02.

I've taken all of my GenCon friends on TD runs with me, hoping to expand our group and EVERY SINGLE YEAR we get some "high level" player running in last minute DEMANDING a specific class because they "only" have one build.
We've also had coercion for both difficulty level and one really awkward exchange where they were trying to force their TE's on us in "exchange" for the best draws...

Couple that with the increasing price and I can't get anyone to play more than one year.....

In general I've loved the TD groups we've run with but every year "something" happens.... One bad apple. I don't know how to fix that.

Yes, that's very unfortunate. And I also don't have an easy solution, other than trying to get the coaches to police it. But, having done a lot of coaching, I can tell you it is hard to do.

Michael S wrote:

smakdown wrote: myself, i'll play whatever level the group decides. WE, as a community, need to do everything we can to bring in new people and make sure they have a great experience.

I'll throw in my $0.02.

I've taken all of my GenCon friends on TD runs with me, hoping to expand our group and EVERY SINGLE YEAR we get some "high level" player running in last minute DEMANDING a specific class because they "only" have one build.
We've also had coercion for both difficulty level and one really awkward exchange where they were trying to force their TE's on us in "exchange" for the best draws...

Couple that with the increasing price and I can't get anyone to play more than one year.....

In general I've loved the TD groups we've run with but every year "something" happens.... One bad apple. I don't know how to fix that.

I can empathize, I used to have so many friends at GENCON that wanted to play that we had to do multiple runs of the Dungeon to fit everyone in, and always did every Dungeon. Because of the increased price we only do one run now instead of one or more of each. This year I was only able to get seven total people for our run - and one of those is my Nephew from New Zealand, who has been looking forward to another True Dungeon run since his first in 2011. Like you, I've had some bad experiences including people we don't know in the run, so I like to do full runs of my friends. If we're down to just six people next year, we might have to take a look at whether we continue playing.

I will say that those of us that are still playing have really enjoyed the Dungeons the least several years (I had a mass exodus of friends quitting TD during the Smoak years), so even with the increased price and a smaller group of friends interested in playing, there is a chance we'll be back in the Dungeons next year.

Michael S wrote: I've taken all of my GenCon friends on TD runs with me, hoping to expand our group and EVERY SINGLE YEAR we get some "high level" player running in last minute DEMANDING a specific class because they "only" have one build.
We've also had coercion for both difficulty level and one really awkward exchange where they were trying to force their TE's on us in "exchange" for the best draws...

Ugh, I'm so sorry to hear that.

Know that you have the right to firmly say no to all of those things, and definitely tell your coach about it if they keep pushing and won't accept no (we can back you up, and we can escalate higher if necessary). Unfortunately that's not a complete solution, because in order to fully enjoy TD the party still has to work together in the dungeon and some people for whatever reason are bound and determined to be selfish jerks...

The only totally foolproof workaround I know of is to buy out all 10 tickets for a run, and only invite people to join you who are not selfish jerks. But not everyone has the resources to do this.

Perhaps the second best option is to do a sealed pack adventure, which there are two of at Gencon this year. This doesn't rule out the possibility of ending up in a run with selfish jerks, but it does cut down on the specific ways they can ruin the fun.

I agree with everything you've said. We've worked through it (firmly but politely) each year.

However, I guess the real point is. I think this is a major source of "It's not worth it" or "I didn't have a good time" comments.... which I think is a long term hazard to TD and to the point of this thread, part of the "demand side" issues leading to lower token prices.
I think the sealed runs and a great attempt at fixing this, but then they get to year #2, and run into this kind of behavior...? Will they keep coming? (For me, I didn't invest heavily into tokens until after my second year).

You're right about that! Playing sealed every year is a great way to enjoy the game with no pressure to collect tokens, but also offers no incentive to collect tokens.

If TPTB want to encourage new collectors, they should do everything possible to make standard format play work better for mixed-level groups. It's not an easy problem to solve, but I still think stat caps for Normal difficulty (lifted only by unanimous consent) would help to some extent.

Definitely not an easy problem to solve.