TOPIC: Token Prices plummet?

Getting far afield, but my sense as to why veterans got into PUGs was mainly:

1. Not having a group to run with.
2. Tickets being hard to get at Gen Con.
3. Actually enjoying PUG play.

While some may have been looking to leverage TEs, I never had anyone offer treasure deals to me before I had TEs. I saw it on one run with others I can recall after I had TEs, though it's possible it happened more often and I just wasn't paying attention.

To me, it's such a waste of time and effort to be trying to play for profit rather than an actual desire to play the game. Maybe when treasure was better, it made more sense.

Ian Lee wrote: Getting far afield, but my sense as to why veterans got into PUGs was mainly:

1. Not having a group to run with.
2. Tickets being hard to get at Gen Con.
3. Actually enjoying PUG play.

While some may have been looking to leverage TEs, I never had anyone offer treasure deals to me before I had TEs. I saw it on one run with others I can recall after I had TEs, though it's possible it happened more often and I just wasn't paying attention.

To me, it's such a waste of time and effort to be trying to play for profit rather than an actual desire to play the game. Maybe when treasure was better, it made more sense.

100% agree that playing for fun rather than profit is why most of us play. I suspect it used to be possible to play for profit but I doubt its the case now.

I do PUG runs mainly for two reason:
1. I like encouraging newer players and seeing their perspective is fun and refreshing.
2. Sometimes, there are freaking-Jeff-Logic puzzles I can't figure out and I have to solve them or my OCD will drive me nuts.

Hopefully more of 1 than 2

I can only recall one player with a CoA offering it to me for X amount of treasure, like 3 or 5. I had some treasure draws on hand from purchases so I gave them to him then. So worries, I was still getting more than expected!

Another offer of TEs was made, and I asked how many draws he wanted. I got an odd look, but was told none, just to enjoy the extra draws.

I wish for the run I am doing this year with my friends who don’t play very often that I had full TRs to loan everyone, but no such luck. But I do plan to share my spare bead and IS nuggets if they want them.

Although I normally run Nightmare, I don't have a set group that I play with all the time. My family plays as well but the four of us can't fill a run by ourselves. I don't try to get into groups at Gen Con ahead of time because we want to do things other than True Dungeon at Gen Con (gasp!) and without knowing what days/times we'll get from the wish list makes committing ahead of time difficult without knowing the exact day/time of a run. But honestly, I enjoy the PUG games with new (or newish) players the most even if we are running normal. They are excited about the tokens from the 10-packs and they have more fun because there is a real chance of not surviving.

I think most (if not all) of the players that loaned TEs no longer play. I loan mine out all the time (for free) and everyone else I've played with has loaned theirs as well (for free). The fact that most players loan the TEs for free would make it awkward at this point for someone to try to take a "handling fee" for it.

As for why token prices are plummeting, I think there are several factors:

(1) The announcement of Mythic level tokens meant that it was only a matter of time before the Legendary tokens (and possibly Eldritch as well) are no longer BIS. Therefore, the prices dropped in anticipation of that.
(2) The announcement of Omni Orb/Cube meant that the stock of Legendary tokens will no longer be fixed. Therefore, the anticipated increased supply of Legendary tokens drove down prices.
(3) Many veteran players with Legendary tokens (and often multiples of each) put their tokens on the market due to (1) and (2). That caused an immediate increase in supply (as compared to the anticipated increase from (2)).
(4) The more "affordable" price of Legendary tokens means that some that would have stopped with Relic are now getting Legendary tokens, in turn causing more supply of Relic. And those that would have stopped with UR are now getting Relic and Legendary tokens, thus lowering demand for URs.
(5) The 8k purchases are now driven by the Path to Enlightenment, Marks, and Rings of nth Circle. That results in 8k purchases having excess URs again lowering the price.
(6) VTD is more frequent than in person so there is more treasure and more random UR pulls.
(7) Chase tokens such as the Idols that are only found in treasure encourage players to do more VTD runs to complete sets. Of course, that results in more pulls of other tokens which increases stock of trade goods when those are mulched.
(8) There are many more 8k auctions in the last few years. In the past, it was either buy an 8k on your own or with a group which limited the number of persons with the coin to make such a purchase. Again, this results in a lot of excess URs and trade goods.
(9) TD is increasing the trade goods needed for recipes and allowing unwanted URs to be used in creating Omni Orbs/Cubes. On the one hand, this boosts or limits the decline of prices for URs and trade goods. But because of the chase for the Path of Enlightenment, Rings, Marks in 8k, and the chase for Idols in VTD, there is a downward pressure that at present is outweighing the upward pressure.

Ian Lee wrote: Getting far afield, but my sense as to why veterans got into PUGs was mainly:

1. Not having a group to run with.
2. Tickets being hard to get at Gen Con.
3. Actually enjoying PUG play.

While some may have been looking to leverage TEs, I never had anyone offer treasure deals to me before I had TEs. I saw it on one run with others I can recall after I had TEs, though it's possible it happened more often and I just wasn't paying attention.

To me, it's such a waste of time and effort to be trying to play for profit rather than an actual desire to play the game. Maybe when treasure was better, it made more sense.

These are exactly the reasons I would join a PUG. I now get invited to more organized groups, so am doing fewer PUGs. They're usually pretty fun when I do join one.

I'm sure some people have done it, but I don't get farming for profit. There may be once or twice a year where I pull something extra special, don't need it, sell it and cover my ticket costs for the weekend. But that is rare. Over the course of a year I definitely spend much more than I get back from the stuff I do sell. However, getting anything back does help lower the cost and helps me justify doing more runs. My main reason for doing multiple runs. I'm having fun.

Off topic a bit, but is it really beneficial to loan TE tokens out in PUGs? It does help dilute the token pool, and might be a disincentive for people to buy TE tokens if they are going to be able to use them for free. I get on an individual run it seems like a good thing, but I'm not so sure it's good for TD cumulative.

Regarding 2nd Rings being a hot item next year, I think demand for them will be limited to the number of 3rd Rings in circulation. I'm not sure anyone without 5th/4th/3rd Rings (with 3rd Rings seeming to be the limiting factor) will be looking for 2nd Rings.

It's actually not in our interests to lend out TEs as it increases amount of treasure others get which devalues our collections. But, we do it anyway because humans often like helping others to their own economic detriment. It's charity. For some, charity is pretty important.

Ian Lee wrote: It's actually not in our interests to lend out TEs as it increases amount of treasure others get which devalues our collections. But, we do it anyway because humans often like helping others to their own economic detriment. It's charity. For some, charity is pretty important.

I do it because, as you say, I like helping others.

But I'd argue that helping someone new(ish) out helps create the TD community which encourages people to keep playing/play more. And typically these individuals are playing one run per VTD (or in person). Letting them have say, 20 or so more treasure isn't really going to contribute to the dilution at anywhere near the rate as my points above (let alone the combined effect of all of them). And there is a good chance that pulling some decent tokens causes them to want to collect more tokens. I'd agree it doesn't seem like it would help boost the price of the TEs themselves if people can get the extra treasure for free. But I've had a number of people get excited about the extra treasure and announce that they need to get some TEs for themselves.

I was also thinking a "first taste is free" philosophy on TE loaning, but it seems to be the norm on VTD which could damper that thinking somewhat.

Marc D wrote: I was also thinking a "first taste is free" philosophy on TE loaning, but it seems to be the norm on VTD which could damper that thinking somewhat.

True, that was my point. If someone can reasonable expect to get TE tokens loaned to them, there is no incentive for them to buy TE tokens, which is less revenue for TD.

Mike Steele wrote:

Marc D wrote: I was also thinking a "first taste is free" philosophy on TE loaning, but it seems to be the norm on VTD which could damper that thinking somewhat.

True, that was my point. If someone can reasonable expect to get TE tokens loaned to them, there is no incentive for them to buy TE tokens, which is less revenue for TD.

Sure if you could prove that anyone can reasonable expect a TE, but I think that is a hard proof. Just because some random person joined a random run once and loaned TE's I don't know why that would make anyone reasonable think it would happened again. Even if randomly it happened half of the runs you had been on I don't think it is a reasonable assumption that you will get TE's loaned to you.

jedibcg wrote: Just because some random person joined a random run once and loaned TE's I don't know why that would make anyone reasonable think it would happened again.

💯

And even though I agree with you completely, I can't tell you how many times I've interacted with people in the TDverse who have an attitude that essentially boils down to, "because once, therefore always." And these folks get bigly 🍑-hurt when their very incorrect assumptions don't pan out.🙄

It may not be reasonable, but it's something TDHQ has to deal with a lot.