TOPIC: Transmute Recipes -- Part Two

Thank you all for the quick and wise feedback. I should have given some background on these recipes when we posted them. Here are my thoughts...

Due to the expansion of TD runs in the last few years, Monster Bits (and Golden Fleece) have become much more common. We will adjust this down starting in 2020, but I feel we need to keep the same level of Monster Bits in the treasure throughout the whole 4-year story arc. And in 2020+, we will drop the number of Golden Fleece needed in Transmuted recipes. If you don't have any Golden Fleece collected, please reach out to folks on the Forum -- as there is a record amount of Monster Bits and Golden Fleece floating around out there. Hopefully, you can make some good trades and be all set rather quickly.

A summary:

• Removed a Golden Fleece from many recipes
• Reduced the Alchemist's ingredients but increased some minor trade goods on many recipes
• Increased recipe #2 on Widseth - it was just too low. It is still cheaper if you have the original lutes

Besides making these adjustments I want you to know the motivation behind some of the recipes. I realized Monster Bits were getting out of hand when we added additional conventions. I did not lower the ratio of Monster Bits in the treasure boxes in the middle of a story arc. That would have created a couple of years that were more scarce then the first two years. I felt it was better to keep the original ratio and add Golden Fleece to some recipes.

Note: If there is a new set transmute, similar to the Boots/Kilts, I will communicate the number of years and the exact recipe for that multi-year item when it is announced. I will not publish the powers they will remain a secret until it can be transmuted.

Please remember I want these Relic/Legendary tokens to be a mini-quest within the game for the player. Except for some rare players, most players won't come "naturally" to all the necessary ingredients. I want them to have to search out, trade, and acquire these items -- and feel a sense of accomplishment when they transmute their new awesome token.



Canteen of Quaffing (***)

• 50 GP Icewood Canteen
• 200 GP equivalent

Figurine of Power: Dog (***)

• 100 GP Jade Sculpture or 100 GP Malachite Sculpture
• 4× Darkwood Plank
  plus ONLY ONE of the following:
• Devil Drake Claw
• Giant Blood
• Helkyrie Ichor
• Troll Shaman Finger

Belt of Ogre Mage Power (****)

• Belt of Ogre Power
• Shaman’s Charm
• 10× Mystic Silk
• 1,000 GP equivalent
  plus ONLY ONE of the following:
• Devil Drake Claw
• Giant Blood
• Helkyrie Ichor
• Troll Shaman Finger

Charm of Treasure Boosting (****)

• Charm of the Faithful
• 1× Dwarven Steel
• 1× Minotaur Hide
• 1× Philosopher’s Stone
  plus any FOUR (×4) of the following (duplicates are fine):
• Devil Drake Claw
• Giant Blood
• Helkyrie Ichor
• Troll Shaman Finger
• any 2019 Monster Trophy

Enchanter's Whetstone (****)

• +1 Keen Bolt
• 1× Aragonite
• 1× Dwarven Steel
• 1× Elven Bismuth
• 500 GP equivalent
  plus ONLY ONE of the following:
• Devil Drake Claw
• Giant Blood
• Helkyrie Ichor
• Troll Shaman Finger

Bead of the Lucky Traveler (***** Story Arc, aka "4C")

• Bead Firehold
• Elder Orb Eye (2016)
• Lava Beast Nugget (2016)
• Spidaur Venom (2016)
• Succubus Horn (2016)
• Draccus Scale (2017)
• Iron Rook Rivet (2017)
• Old Holly Sprig (2017)
• Scrael Claw (2017)
• Devil Drake Claw (2018)
• Giant Blood (2018)
• Helkyrie Ichor (2018)
• Troll Shaman Finger (2018)
• Monster Trophy #1 (2019)
• Monster Trophy #2 (2019)
• Monster Trophy #3 (2019)
• Monster Trophy #4 (2019)
• Monster Trophy #5 (2019)
• Monster Trophy #6 (2019)

Lute of Free Fury (*****)

• Lute of Fury
• 9× Alchemist’s Ink
• 5× Alchemist’s Parchment
• 1× Aragonite
• 20× Darkwood Plank
• 2× Dwarven Steel
• 1× Elven Bismuth
• 1× Golden Fleece
• 3× Minotaur Hide
• 15× Mystic Silk
• 1× Oil of Enchantment
• 15× Philosopher’s Stone
• 5,000 GP in Reserve bars

Necklace of the Sneak (*****)

• Shoes of the Sneak or Boots of the Underdark
• Hood of Shadows
• 9× Alchemist’s Ink
• 5× Alchemist’s Parchment
• 1× Aragonite
• 15× Darkwood Plank
• 5× Dwarven Steel
• 1× Elven Bismuth
• 1× Golden Fleece
• 1× Minotaur Hide
• 15× Mystic Silk
• 1× Oil of Enchantment
• 15× Philosopher’s Stone
• 5,000 GP in Reserve bars

Shaman's Greater Necklace (*****)

• Shaman's Belt or Coronet of Arch Druid
• Cloak of Painful Luck
• 5× Alchemist’s Ink
• 5× Alchemist’s Parchment
• 1× Aragonite
• 20× Darkwood Plank
• 5× Dwarven Steel
• 1× Elven Bismuth
• 1× Golden Fleece
• 1× Minotaur Hide
• 15× Mystic Silk
• 1× Oil of Enchantment
• 15× Philosopher’s Stone
• 5,000 GP in Reserve bars

Kilt of the Dungeonbane (Eldritch Relic)

• Kilt of Barrelbane
• Kilt of the Fatherbane
• Kilt of the Tavernbane
• 1× Alchemist’s Ink
• 1× Alchemist’s Parchment
• 1× Aragonite
• 1× Darkwood Plank
• 1× Dwarven Steel
• 1× Elven Bismuth
• 1× Enchanter’s Munition
• 1× Golden Fleece
• 1× Minotaur Hide
• 1× Mystic Silk
• 1× Oil of Enchantment
• 1× Philosopher’s Stone

Iktomi's Shaper Necklace

• Shaman's Greater Necklace
• Charm of Spell Swapping (any year)
• Lenses of Divine Sight (any year)
• 10× Alchemist’s Ink
• 8× Alchemist’s Parchment
• 2× Aragonite
• 15× Darkwood Plank
• 8× Dwarven Steel
• 2× Elven Bismuth
• 5× Enchanter’ Munition
• 2× Golden Fleece
• 1× Minotaur Hide
• 20× Mystic Silk
• 2× Oil of Enchantment
• 15× Philosopher’s Stone
• 25,000 GP Eldritch Bar
  plus ONLY ONE of the following:
• Wish Ring
• 15,000 GP in Reserve bars

Raphiel’s Sneaky Necklace

• Necklace of the Sneak
• Questor’s Charm of Luck
• Cloak of Shadowskin
• 10× Alchemist’s Ink
• 5× Alchemist’s Parchment
• 2× Aragonite
• 20× Darkwood Plank
• 8× Dwarven Steel
• 2× Elven Bismuth
• 10× Enchanter’s Munition
• 2× Golden Fleece
• 4× Minotaur Hide
• 15× Mystic Silk
• 2× Oil of Enchantment
• 15× Philosopher’s Stone
• 25,000 GP Eldritch Bar
  plus ONLY ONE of the following:
• Wish Ring
• 15,000 GP in Reserve bars

Widseth's Legendary Lute
Recipe #1

• Lute of Free Fury
• Earcuff of the Phalanx
• Dark Disciple’s Shirt
• 10× Alchemist’s Ink
• 5× Alchemist’s Parchment
• 2× Aragonite
• 20× Darkwood Plank
• 8× Dwarven Steel
• 2× Elven Bismuth
• 10× Enchanter’s Munition
• 2× Golden Fleece
• 1× Minotaur Hide
• 15× Mystic Silk
• 2× Oil of Enchantment
• 15× Philosopher’s Stone
• 25,000 GP Eldritch Bar
  plus ONLY ONE of the following:
• Wish Ring
• 15,000 GP in Reserve bars

Recipe #2

• Lute of Free Fury AND any THREE (×3) of the following:
  
  • Amorgen's Amazing Ocarina
  • Briano's Blessed Bodhrán
  • Widseth's Mystical Lute
• 5× Alchemist’s Ink
• 2× Argonite
• 10× Darkwood Plank
• 3× Elven Bismuth
• 2× Golden Fleece
• 8× Mystic Silk
• 2× Oil of Enchantment
• 8× Philosopher’s Stone
• 25,000 GP Eldritch Bar
  plus ONLY ONE of the following:
• Wish Ring
• 15,000 GP in Reserve bars

monster bits in the boxes total doesn’t mean more in any individual hands. definitely it does in some that can go to multiple conventions, but if you can only go to one then your bits did not go up each year.

Jeff, I don't have the old recipes in front of me, but did the alternate recipe for the Lute just get more expensive by adding the third UR requirement but keeping the Relic? I think it's great to add the third UR, but I think the recipe should be the four UR instruments plus stuff, not the Relic and three URs. That doesn't seem to reward the long-time players with the individual instruments.

I'm OK with the Golden Fleece requirements on most recipes, but there shouldn't be any on the Kilt recipe. The Eldritch Recipes were well established, and I think people were planning their purchases around how it had been in the past (one of each UR, one of each Trade Item Token except for Golden Fleece). Adding a Fleece at this stage I think is unfair, after people have already invested in two of the URs assuming the recipe would be as usual. I think it's totally cool to start a new multi-year cycle next year and say at the start that there will be Golden Fleece requirements.

Thanks for the changes and the explanation Jeff!

From a copy-edit standpoint (For the eventual token guide)

Kilts should all be "Kilt of X" and not "Kilt of the X"

The Legendary Lute recipe, if it is going to require ALL 3, then you can just list the 3 instruments.

Phil

Phil Norton wrote: Thanks for the changes and the explanation Jeff!

From a copy-edit standpoint (For the eventual token guide)

Kilts should all be "Kilt of X" and not "Kilt of the X"

The Legendary Lute recipe, if it is going to require ALL 3, then you can just list the 3 instruments.

Phil

It sounds like you could have three of just one for instance, instead of one of each.

Phil Norton wrote: Thanks for the changes and the explanation Jeff!

From a copy-edit standpoint (For the eventual token guide)

Kilts should all be "Kilt of X" and not "Kilt of the X"

The Legendary Lute recipe, if it is going to require ALL 3, then you can just list the 3 instruments.

Phil

I think you can use 2 of the same instrument. 2 lutes, 2 ocarinas, etc.

Ninja'd

Mike Steele wrote: Jeff, I don't have the old recipes in front of me, but did the alternate recipe for the Lute just get more expensive by adding the third UR requirement but keeping the Relic? I think it's great to add the third UR, but I think the recipe should be the four UR instruments plus stuff, not the Relic and three URs. That doesn't seem to reward the long-time players with the individual instruments.

Maybe that's a good argument for a 3rd recipe that'd have all four UR instruments plus stuff?

I also have some mild confusion with the new wording. It says ANY THREE but then lists three tokens. Does that mean that I could transmute it with three Ocarinas?

Mike Steele wrote: I'm OK with the Golden Fleece requirements on most recipes, but there shouldn't be any on the Kilt recipe. The Eldritch Recipes were well established, and I think people were planning their purchases around how it had been in the past (one of each UR, one of each Trade Item Token except for Golden Fleece). Adding a Fleece at this stage I think is unfair, after people have already invested in two of the URs assuming the recipe would be as usual. I think it's totally cool to start a new multi-year cycle next year and say at the start that there will be Golden Fleece requirements.

I'll second that the fleece requirements on most recipes are fine, but the eldritch recipe change at this stage seems to be in poor sport. I know me and a few friends had this _exact_ discussion and assumption a few months ago.

Jeff revised recipes look good, Fleece/Bits has been plentiful. Are there any plans for completion Tokens in future recipes like the Ring of Heroism? Like Bits/Fleece It seems there are more than ever.

Is there any way to make it always possible to transmute one of these class-specific legendaries, with the tokens that are in print?

If a new player gets into True Dungeon now and falls in love with the Rogue class, many of them would conclude that they can't attend enough cons to be able to get the ingredients they'd need, in the time window that they have to make the relic. Or even worse, find out that the unique rogue legendary was only available 3 years ago, and now they just have to pay for it.

Also - I'm all for treating these as endgame pieces that required a lot of work to get, but I'd also argue that they should be more doable with just playing True Dungeon a lot. I understand having to do some trading to pick up an odd piece of two you're missing, but I'd really like someone who goes to 1-2 cons a year, and plays each adventure once at each con to have a shot at making one of these. Currently, a lot of that hard work won't feel as rewarding, since gathering ingredients basically means paying for stuff: the PYPs needed in the ingredients, and trade goods.

Both of these problems get a little better if class specific legendaries can always be made with the tokens in the currently printed set.

Eric wrote: Is there any way to make it always possible to transmute one of these class-specific legendaries, with the tokens that are in print?

If a new player gets into True Dungeon now and falls in love with the Rogue class, many of them would conclude that they can't attend enough cons to be able to get the ingredients they'd need, in the time window that they have to make the relic. Or even worse, find out that the unique rogue legendary was only available 3 years ago, and now they just have to pay for it.

I'm afraid the Legendary weapons were the same way. Either you were a rogue at the right time, or that +2/+3 Viper Strike Fang was going to cost you a couple hundred.

Eric wrote: Also - I'm all for treating these as endgame pieces that required a lot of work to get, but I'd also argue that they should be more doable with just playing True Dungeon a lot. I understand having to do some trading to pick up an odd piece of two you're missing, but I'd really like someone who goes to 1-2 cons a year, and plays each adventure once at each con to have a shot at making one of these. Currently, a lot of that hard work won't feel as rewarding, since gathering ingredients basically means paying for stuff: the PYPs needed in the ingredients, and trade goods.

I don't know that I agree with this. Legendary tokens have always taken a huge commitment. The amount of effort you're describing translates into the Enhanced and Exalted transmutes. Those are a fine reward for playing ~6 runs a year.

Eric wrote: Both of these problems get a little better if class specific legendaries can always be made with the tokens in the currently printed set.

The truth of the matter is that oftentimes, a transmuted token costs less than the sum of its parts. This means that if you really want that +3 or +5 weapon bad enough, it'd cost you less money than it would to buy the pieces individually that transmute it (even when they are in print).

There is no feeling of quest or adventure in setting aside a sum of cash each week/month, but the result is the same, and at a lower cost.

jedibcg wrote: monster bits in the boxes total doesn’t mean more in any individual hands. definitely it does in some that can go to multiple conventions, but if you can only go to one then your bits did not go up each year.

Yep, also making for much more high variance which makes the rare times you pull good loot feel really special.

The whetstone really seems like might as well get an UR weapon at that point,

Is the FoP Dog aimed at newer players? As a 3 star 3 planks feels odd, i can see a plank plus something else but how many players who go off pulls alone are likely to have that?

Belt feels steep but that's also likely due to no intermediate transmute like we had with belt/shirts recently.

Treasure booster actually feels approachable,

re: Arnold, I understand that has been the precedent with previous legendaries, but I'm challenging whether that's something that needs to be stick in stone going forward.

I'm also trying to work backwards from the current legendary recipes. Given the recipe for the rogue legendary, how much would someone need to play True Dungeon every year to get a shot at making one? How much would that person need to spend (buying PYPs, buying trade goods). Finally, looking at that number, is that a number that feels like it sufficiently rewards players just for playing? Or do these feel hopelessly out of reach?

We don't necessarily have to end up agreeing (it's fine if we don't!), but my feeling is that many new players (who don't really participate in this process, btw) would look at what legendaries have cost, historically, and conclude that they'll never be able to make one. And I think that we'd have way more engaged, token-buying players by smoothing out the cost curve.