TOPIC: Polymorph Needs a Rework!

In the old days, polymorph sucked. You needed to consume a Rare token (or uncommon Otter), spend a turn drinking it, and couldn't use spells. But it did have a higher damage wheel to compensate for it.

Nowadays, polymorph is extremely overpowered. There are more tokens that negate the restrictions (spend a turn drinking it and can't cast spells). Not only do you get + STR bonuses (to melee hit and damage) but there is also an ever-increasing number of + damage from Focus-related items. Plus you get main-hand sleaze since you get the + hit bonus if your main weapon even when using a polymorph token. And class-specific bonuses too.

These problems come to a head with the Transmuted polymorph items, which do away with the need to use consumables and still have excessively strong damage wheels.

The past few years, I have seen obscenely powerful Druid and Wizard polymorph builds. Druids and Wizards should NOT be competitive with Fighter types in melee combat, especially since they have spells too.

So I think it's time to rework polymorph:

1. They should either get STR bonuses OR Focus item bonuses. NOT both.

2. Maybe it should also be time to streamline the Focus items. Right now it's confusing why some Focus items give Polymorph damage while others don't. So maybe remove STR bonuses and just allow all Focus items to grant Polymorph damage.

3. The Relic/Legendary transmutes should also be more in line compared with the UR Coronet (which still gets regular use in Grind). And there should still be a reason for those players to still use consumable Polymorph Potions. So maybe the damage wheels should be *weaker* than Rare polymorph damage wheels. With the issue of the Wands (last year's wands obsoleting consumables but now being rolled back), I don't think it's a good idea for Relic/Legendaries to entirely obsolete a whole category of consumables which actually gets decent use in combat.

I’d argue against something you’ve said, but then if have to disagree with part of it.

Keep in mind, this is with the Druid Class Specific Token. The Barbarian Class Specific Token will likely boost Barbarian damage.

Remember rage is one combat per game. Okay, two if you eat a Cherry. And Barbs don’t get spells

Poly is every combat

Brad Mortensen wrote: Remember rage is one combat per game. Okay, two if you eat a Cherry. And Barbs don’t get spells

Poly is every combat

Still most Barbarians do far more damage on average than Poly builds. Rage is just that extra something nice. I won't argue with the spells thing. I'm tired of that conversation.

I've got a fairly high end Poly Wizard build and hold my own in combat, but don't come close to actual fighter classes.

That being said I do agree that making the consumable Polymorph options obsolete is not a good idea.

I don't agree with losing STR bonuses. It is a physical combat based character. I'd have no issues with Focus items being modified though. This would also cut back on spell damage. So you would have to choose. Are you a physical polymorph character or a spell caster.

Brad Mortensen wrote: Remember rage is one combat per game. Okay, two if you eat a Cherry. And Barbs don’t get spells

Poly is every combat

Not to mention the Druid can already do Spell Surged Call Lightning for more damage than a Wizard. Since Spell Surge includes + spell damage while Mad Evoker only doubles base damage.

Bhorg wrote: Without posting both builds, I reviewed some of the 'max damage builds' on the boards for barbarian. I adjusted for some of the new 2018/2019 gear.

With rage, barbarian gets topped out at 49 bonus damage (ignoring everything else), Druid has 42 in polymorph. With the new eldritch changes, I think that will be 50 and 43, actually (this is not included in the app or spreadsheet yet). The Barbarian's + hit is 22, Druid's is 20, FWIW.

The damage wheel for 5+ Deathcleaver is somewhat better than Iktomi's, but the necklace has the opportunity to get bonus for elemental damage, which I was unable to factor into the math here.

Druids should not come even remotely close to Barbarians when it comes to melee combat. Especially because Druids also have healing spells and damage spells.

Even +49 vs +42 is far too close for comfort. Druids really shouldn't be getting +42 to damage....

I guess my point was, why wouldn’t a raging Barb do more melee than a poly Druid?

And I could see it both ways. The poly pot alters you physically: you grow fangs and gills and whatnot. Assuming your STR wouldn’t be affected doesn’t necessarily follow when everything except your mind does...

But then I never understood why Focus affects poly but not any other potions.

So it seems to me like one or the other, STR or focus, should go.

And letting the high-end necklaces obsolete consumables is a road we’ve traveled and are backtracking within a year. Seems like we’re repeating a mistake.

Chris Von Wahlde wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: Remember rage is one combat per game. Okay, two if you eat a Cherry. And Barbs don’t get spells

Poly is every combat

Still most Barbarians do far more damage on average than Poly builds. Rage is just that extra something nice. I won't argue with the spells thing. I'm tired of that conversation.

I've got a fairly high end Poly Wizard build and hold my own in combat, but don't come close to actual fighter classes.

That being said I do agree that making the consumable Polymorph options obsolete is not a good idea.

I don't agree with losing STR bonuses. It is a physical combat based character. I'd have no issues with Focus items being modified though. This would also cut back on spell damage. So you would have to choose. Are you a physical polymorph character or a spell caster.

With the new token’s damage wheel, the +5 damage from Druid 5th level polymorph, and the +5 damagr from Drues and the +2 damage from the shirt and the +2 damage from the tome Druids do melee damage comparable with Barbarians at similar gearing.

They do more melee damage than Fighters at similar gearing.

They do have a lower to-hit than those classes.

Now that the new token is in the neck slot instead of waste slot I believe Polymorph Druid hits harder than any other melee class on a single puck.

If we need to split druid into two classes, I'm game.

Please don't throw out the notion of errataing Drue's or even its relic version like it's some kind of easy-no-big-deal fix. Nobody likes getting their UR toys taken away. It seems downright cruel to pull the rug out from under a transmute at the relic+ level

If the slotless Gregor's needs to remove polymorph from the text, so be it. If Jeff wants to stop attaching polymorph to these items altogether, fine.

IMHO, I would think that power creep is expected as new class specific legendaries are introduced. The current state of things will certainly be sized up when the time comes to design the legendary barbarian necklace. If there is a narrowing of the gap, it should only be temporary.

Incognito wrote: In the old days, polymorph sucked. You needed to consume a Rare token (or uncommon Otter), spend a turn drinking it, and couldn't use spells. But it did have a higher damage wheel to compensate for it.

Nowadays, polymorph is extremely overpowered. There are more tokens that negate the restrictions (spend a turn drinking it and can't cast spells). Not only do you get + STR bonuses (to melee hit and damage) but there is also an ever-increasing number of + damage from Focus-related items. Plus you get main-hand sleaze since you get the + hit bonus if your main weapon even when using a polymorph token. And class-specific bonuses too.

These problems come to a head with the Transmuted polymorph items, which do away with the need to use consumables and still have excessively strong damage wheels.

The past few years, I have seen obscenely powerful Druid and Wizard polymorph builds. Druids and Wizards should NOT be competitive with Fighter types in melee combat, especially since they have spells too.

So I think it's time to rework polymorph:

1. They should either get STR bonuses OR Focus item bonuses. NOT both.

2. Maybe it should also be time to streamline the Focus items. Right now it's confusing why some Focus items give Polymorph damage while others don't. So maybe remove STR bonuses and just allow all Focus items to grant Polymorph damage.

3. The Relic/Legendary transmutes should also be more in line compared with the UR Coronet (which still gets regular use in Grind). And there should still be a reason for those players to still use consumable Polymorph Potions. So maybe the damage wheels should be *weaker* than Rare polymorph damage wheels. With the issue of the Wands (last year's wands obsoleting consumables but now being rolled back), I don't think it's a good idea for Relic/Legendaries to entirely obsolete a whole category of consumables which actually gets decent use in combat.

Isn’t the wheel on the new legendary only like a point or two above the wheel on the coronet?

1.5 to be exact.