TOPIC: Wand Rework Design // Meta Issues // Suggestion

The changes to how Wands are currently slated to work for the 2019 season onwards is a significant departure from both the original "punch" design of the wands (pre-2018) and the unlimited stacking but one use per wand design of 2018. Unfortunately, I believe that this is a significant regression in the abilities of wands - not just from the amount of damage players were able to put out using Medallion of Mystic Mouth in 2018 without the cost of consumables, but also from the pre-"infinite use" design that existed in 2017 and before.

To illustrate this, I've laid out a few scenarios of a Wizard entering a combat room and wanting to use a wand every round (be it because that wizard is out of spells, they have a Medallion of Mystic Mouth and wish to use their Free Action on it, etc.). I'll be looking at the token commitment for each scenario for each of the wand designs, and discussing the deltas between each one.

(Before we start, I'm aware that there weren't multiple damage types for the 2018 wands. Consider this a "had the 2018 design continued" analysis on that part.)

Scenarios:

1) Wizard comes in, uses 3 rounds of a Rare wand (3 punches in pre-2018 wands)
2) Wizard comes in, uses 1 round of a wand, finds out its the wrong type, uses a second wand for 2 rounds
3) Wizard comes in, uses 1 round of a wand, team slides crits and only one round is needed
4) Wizard comes in, uses 1 round of a wand, finds out the monster is immune to all its available wands, so stops using them.
5) Wizard comes in, uses 5 rounds of wands on the final boss of the dungeon.

Scenario 1) Wizard comes in, uses 3 rounds of a Rare wand (3 punches in pre-2018 wands)

Pre-2018: Wizard uses 3 total punches - the equivalent of one rare wand. That token is lost.
2018: Wizard uses 3 wands for 3 rounds of combat. No tokens are lost, but the wizard had to own 3 wands.
2019: Wizard uses 1 rare wand. That wand is lost.

Analysis: The Pre-2018 and 2019 scenarios are mostly identical. A clever wizard could use all but the last punch on multiple wands, in order to keep them around to turn into trade goods, but in the simplest scenario the two consumable paths are nearly identical. The 2018 wizard, with his permanent wands, needed to own 3 of them to keep up, but did not lose any tokens at the end of combat.

Scenario 2) Wizard comes in, uses 1 round of a wand, finds out its the wrong type, uses a second wand for 2 rounds

Pre-2018: Wizard uses 3 total punches - the equivalent of one rare wand, but split between two tokens. Depending on punches that were on the wand before, 0-2 tokens would be lost.
2018: Wizard uses 3 wands for 3 rounds of combat. No tokens are lost, but the wizard had to own 3 wands.
2019: Wizard uses 2 rare wands. Those wands are lost.

Analysis: Here we show that an unfortunate choice of first wand means that our 2019 wizard winds up using two rare wands. The pre-2018 Wizard would again have used the equivalent of one rare wand in punches for that combat. Our 2018 Wizard still needs 3 total wands for this combat. Our 2019 wizard is the big loser here: to wand in every round, the wizard must turn in two tokens.

Scenario 3) Wizard comes in, uses 1 round of a wand, team slides crits and only one round is needed

Pre-2018: Wizard uses only 1 punch from a wand. That wand is kept.
2018: Wizard uses 1 wand for 1 round of combat. That wand is kept.
2019: Wizard uses 1 rare wand. That wand is lost.

Analysis: Again, the 2019 consumable wand wizard comes out behind. The pre-2018 wizard used the equivalent of 1/3 of a consumable: under the proposed changes, our 2019 wizard only gets one use out of their wand due to the skill of the rest of the team.

Scenario 4) Wizard comes in, uses 1 round of a wand, finds out the monster is immune to all its available wands, so stops using them.

Pre-2018: Wizard uses only 1 punch from a wand. That wand is kept.
2018: Wizard uses 1 wand for 1 round of combat. That wand is kept.
2019: Wizard uses 1 rare wand. That wand is lost.

Analysis: Scenario 4 is functionally equivalent to scenario 3 in regards to resource consumption for the Wizard. However, it is a bad feeling to turn in a consumable and be told that it has zero effect (like what would have happened this year in the Ogre Mage fight had we been playing under the current ruleset).

Scenario 5) Wizard comes in, uses 5 rounds of wands on the final boss of the dungeon.

Pre-2018: Wizard uses 5 total punches: 1 2/3 rare wands worth of punches. Those tokens are lost.
2018: Wizard uses 5 wands for 5 rounds of combat. No tokens are lost, but the wizard had to own 5 wands to do this.
2019: Wizard uses 1 rare wand. That wand is lost.

Analysis: It is only in longer combats, without any need to change damage type on a wand (or move from multi-target to single target, etc), that the 2019 Wizard pulls ahead of their pre-2018 counterpart. The "infinite use" 2018 wizard has to carry around a lot more wands to make their scenario work, but also doesn't have to turn them in post-combat.

Final analysis:

The proposed changes to wand mechanics for the 2019 season are not only a nerf from the infinite use of the 2018 season, but also in many common scenarios a nerf to the old functionality of the punched wands as well. While reusable wands may have increased Wizard damage output significantly at the cost of only a neck slot (and having to carry a bag of wands for every room), the proposed wand change is far too harsh of a nerf. If wands weren't a significant issue pre-2018, then this change is far too strong. If they were, this still creates a potentially bad play experience for any wizard that wants to use wands, due to them being one-use-only instead of spreadable across multiple combats (if you used the wrong type, or had a short room, or had any other reason to not use a wand for the old 3-tick duration).

Related issue: Fluorite Cube and Medallion of Mystic Mouth, and Nerfs of Tokens Still in Print

A second related issue to the wand nerf is the cascade effect of the nerf on the wand-related URs that have been printed over the last two years. Medallion of Mystic Mouth will rotate out of print before these changes take effect, and is a component of a transmute, so I'll be talking less about it, as it is devalued less by this change.

Ioun Stone Fluorite Cube, however, is another issue entirely.

This UR was designed and printed with the assumption that wands, going forward, would be permanent items. This nerf changes Fluorite Cube from a slotted permanent item booster to a slotted consumable item booster.

What are some other items that have been printed recently to boost consumables?

Greater Alchemist Pouch: SLOTLESS +1HP when eat // drink a cure item. Enhanced rarity.
(Greater) Arcane Scroll Tube: SLOTLESS +2 damage and healing to scrolls. Exalted // enhanced rarity.
Lotus Blossom Bowls: SLOTLESS 1 // game heal potion duplication. UR.
Drinking Horn of Bliss: SLOTLESS any non-heal potion consumed also heals you 1HP. Rare.
Charm of the Sage: CHARM SLOT +2 damage to damage scrolls. Rare.

(I may have missed some relevant example here: please let me know if you find a good counterexample).

In 4/5 of the examples above, the item in question is slotless. The only slotted item that has a similar effect is a rarity level below that of the Fluorite Cube. Changing wands back into consumables is a direct nerf to an Ultra Rare that is STILL ORDERABLE TODAY and will continue to be available throughout the 2019 season.

For the wand nerfs, we aren't talking items that were printed 5 years ago and turned out to be gamebreaking. We're talking about a nerf the year after a change was made, after tokens were printed explicitly to support the new mechanics. If I can't trust that the URs that I selected as PYPs LITERALLY the year before (these items are still in print!) aren't about to receive a nerf, how the hell am I supposed to invest in a build?

If the proposed change to wands goes through, I STRONGLY suggest that Jeff allows the same trade-in that is happening for the Lenses of Divine Sight and Cloak of Shadowskin. Those items have had multiple years of use before their reworks, and the associated good-faith offer to compensate holders of those tokens for their reduced viability: I strongly recommend that the same action be taken for players who have potentially only gotten one season of play out of the tokens that are being affected by the wand change.

Suggestion for Fix

So, after all that ranting, I'd like to toss out a suggestion for a fix. If we consider the 2018 infinite use wands a problem, then this doesn't solve the entire problem, but it alleviates some of the consumable token burden that a Wizard could potentially find themselves with if they want to play with wands in 2019 and onward.

SUGGESTION: Wands act like Runestones - you must turn in any wands you wish to use at the start of the run, but you may use them for the entire run.

Pros: Reduces proposed consumable token burden: wizards that want to wand can use as little as 1 wand per run. Adds decisionmaking to wands: instead of carrying around a golf bag for every occasion, you have to decide before the run (like with Runestones) what effects you want to bring and are most useful. Reduces the impact of short rooms or monster immunity to a particular wand type

Cons: More things for the coaches to write down on an already-overcrowded party card. Reference problems IN the dungeon.

I'd like to hear y'all's thoughts on this potential fix. I don't think it's perfect, but I do think it's a solid middle ground between the strength of wands in 2018 and the 2019 proposal.

Final Reserved

As a coach, I really love the one additional thing to put on the party card however as a wizard player I really like this as a compromise. Trying to appease all sides. And it wouldn’t be too bad in the coaching room

Thanks for taking time to spell out your ideas so thoughtfully.

Here are my thoughts:

1. I agree the change lowers the power level of wands from last year.

2. That being said, I think wands are still the most powerful consumables for damage dealing, even after the change, with the possible exception of Potion Bull's Strength. Ammo, Dust, Oils, most potions, and Runestones pale in comparison. For example, a Rare runestone gets you +1 if you hit - likely to be 1-3 in a room, 3-9 in the whole dungeon. A wand can kick out 20-30 in one room.

3. Agreed that Ioun Stone Fluorite Cube would likely be different were it designed today - however I think TD's generosity with prior redemption / trade in URs when similar/superior versions are printed (Circlet of Elemental Command, Druid's Wild Vestments, Gloves of Dexterity) is leading to a sense of entitlement.

I don't think it's good for players to believe they are entitled to trade in URs (or use older URs in future recipes) any time an older UR is obsoleted - which happens all the time.

So while I would be delighted to see this errated to be slotless, I won't be upset if it doesn't happen.

4. I'll still use wands as a Wizard - the potential for +12 damage a round as a human wizard is too good to pass up - even at a cost of ~3 rares a dungeon (to me - I totally understand not wanting to burn consumables - it's a personal preference).

On the flip side, I have 2 other MMM in my builds for Druid and Cleric that I won't be using any longer (not willing to turn in ~3 uncommons and a neck slot for +6 damage a round).


5. If TD wants to "give back" a little on the wands, having some coaching room turn in seems OK.

If we did this, I might extend a similar mechanism to ammo, dust, and potions at the same time, e.g.:

- Turn in 4 identical wands - use that wand effect an unlimited amount of times

- Turn in 10 identical dusts or ammo - get those effects baked into the party card

- Turn in 4 identical stat boosting potions or oils, and show you have the ability to consume them as a free action - get those bonuses baked into the party card.

Matthew Hayward wrote: Thanks for taking time to spell out your ideas so thoughtfully.

Here are my thoughts:

1. I agree the change lowers the power level of wands from last year.

2. That being said, I think wands are still the most powerful consumables for damage dealing, even after the change, with the possible exception of Potion Bull's Strength. Ammo, Dust, Oils, most potions, and Runestones pale in comparison. For example, a Rare runestone gets you +1 if you hit - likely to be 1-3 in a room, 3-9 in the whole dungeon. A wand can kick out 20-30 in one room.

3. Agreed that Ioun Stone Fluorite Cube would likely be different were it designed today - however I think TD's generosity with prior redemption / trade in URs when similar/superior versions are printed (Circlet of Elemental Command, Druid's Wild Vestments, Gloves of Dexterity) is leading to a sense of entitlement.

I don't think it's good for players to believe they are entitled to trade in URs (or use older URs in future recipes) any time an older UR is obsoleted - which happens all the time.

So while I would be delighted to see this errated to be slotless, I won't be upset if it doesn't happen.

4. I'll still use wands as a Wizard - the potential for +12 damage a round as a human wizard is too good to pass up - even at a cost of ~3 rares a dungeon (to me - I totally understand not wanting to burn consumables - it's a personal preference).

On the flip side, I have 2 other MMM in my builds for Druid and Cleric that I won't be using any longer (not willing to turn in ~3 uncommons and a neck slot for +6 damage a round).


5. If TD wants to "give back" a little on the wands, having some coaching room turn in seems OK.

If we did this, I might extend a similar mechanism to ammo, dust, and potions at the same time, e.g.:

- Turn in 4 identical wands - use that wand effect an unlimited amount of times

- Turn in 10 identical dusts or ammo - get those effects baked into the party card

- Turn in 4 identical stat boosting potions or oils, and show you have the ability to consume them as a free action - get those bonuses baked into the party card.

Keep in mind that dusts/ammo/potions adjust your primary attack. Wands/scrolls are primarily used as your primary attack, with the exception of the MoM use. It is almost required that wands/scrolls be bigger impact than dusts/ammo/potions.

Great analysis, Bob. Spot on.

Matthew, you say a wand can kick out 20-30 damage in one room. That is one round of slides for a well kitted Barb, Ranger, or Monk.

Frankly, I think we seem to be blaming the wands, when the offender is the Motor Mouth Medallion.

If I were to fix it, here's what I would do:
1) Keep wands unlimited. It is less of a hassle for payers and and DMs

2) Errata and if necessary, reprint the Motor Mouth. Make it only usable when the wearer casts a spell (not as a scroll). It limits it somewhat, especially for players recasting with EoE or Norns.

3) Wands used in combat (even for healing) require a slide of 15+ (with Dex and other accuracy bonuses added on).

Xavon wrote:
Frankly, I think we seem to be blaming the wands, when the offender is the Motor Mouth Medallion.

.

This needs to be a token.

Motor Mouth Medallion. Allows Dwarf Fighter unlimited Taunts.

Harlax wrote:

Xavon wrote:
Frankly, I think we seem to be blaming the wands, when the offender is the Motor Mouth Medallion.

.

This needs to be a token.

Motor Mouth Medallion. Allows Dwarf Fighter unlimited Taunts.

It's already in the neck slot. Dwarf Fighter specific legendary?

Xavon wrote:
Matthew, you say a wand can kick out 20-30 damage in one room. That is one round of slides for a well kitted Barb, Ranger, or Monk.

This is extra damage on top od spell casting or sliding by the wand user with MoMM.

jedibcg wrote:

Xavon wrote:
Matthew, you say a wand can kick out 20-30 damage in one room. That is one round of slides for a well kitted Barb, Ranger, or Monk.

This is extra damage on top od spell casting or sliding by the wand user with MoMM.

Oh, I am well aware of that. But considering a Wizard's best spell only does 20 damage plus bonuses, and it a one time thing, that still has to compare to the per turn output of a well built melee monster. Oh, and that is not counting Crits, which spells don't benefit from.