TOPIC: No definitive BIS token

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I would like token development to create many "good" options. In my casual searching, there are current best-in-slot (BIS) items for each of the classes. This makes all the top-tiered of that class play exactly the same. I think it would be really interesting to see other tokens that challenge the BIS, forcing the players to make choices. I don't have any specific ideas, but I'll keep thinking about this. Additionally, this will keep the power creep to a minimum, as they design space goes "lateral" instead of "vertical".

What's interesting about TD is how slots are incredibly restrictive. In theory, competition for those slots would be such that you would get different builds, but, then, something like Boots of the Four Winds comes along and the alternatives pale. Also, slotless items.

The problem from a sales/marketing perspective is that if you don't keep upping the power level for the top end players, what incentive do they have to keep buying? TD, as well, seems to attract players who want to specialize. If all you care about is an aggro barbarian or a healmaxed cleric, diversity of options doesn't offer more sales.

Not everything already exists, of course. Take Shadow Shot. Prior to that, you get double melee and single ranged, which pushes those who crave power to melee. Now, Shadow Shot is hardly adding another 40 damage, so the incentive still exists, but it's a gap that could be filled just as having better archer's bucklers makes ranged a less worse option. In the future, what's the development path for ranged Ranger? Better version of Shadow Shot? Better version of Io's or Thor's? Could instead focus on attacks that have additional effects besides damage, but that's rather dangerous, itself.

Anyway, I'm both inclined to variety and see an ever widening gulf between the casual player and the top end player as a problem, so I'm in your camp. But, it just seems to defy development to this point. Would be interesting to ever see if every slot is just a treasure enhancer and stats are no better than someone with some useful uncommons.

On a related note, while the top end seems to run into problems with ever increasing power, when I go to build builds below the UR level I find that I feel like there are lots of things missing and maybe the potential for different builds exists if willing to bring more effects into lower rarities.

I have the same concerns and would also like to see more variety in builds. I have had discussions with Jeff about some future possibilities that might help out in this area, but I have no idea if/when any of them might happen. But it is something that is worth bringing up during future token development (that will be happening pretty soon on the forums I'm sure for 2019).

From my perspective, it isn't ideal to have any one token be the only good choice for a given slot on a given class. And especially not for a bunch of classes. I would love to see each class have at least two solid build choices, or ultimately 24 pretty different but very solid builds.

You get more of this in some classes than others. There are serious ranged Ranger builds and serious Melee Ranger builds. There are polymorph-focused Druids. I have seen Melee-focused Wizards.

I agree with the idea of having multiple different paths for classes to diverge into, but with the addition of Thor's I feel it's gotten worse. It's a horrible feeling when a nightmare party walks into a room and over half of them are only using Thor's, even the Wizards! I agree there needs to be more options for classes, but their can't be powerful tokens usable by all classes because they become BIS for everyone (almost). Plus, to keep players interested you have to power creep those ultra powerful tokens to keep them buying more which is an issue with every game without seasons.

Although True Dungeon isn't a game which would survive with seasons, power creep is an issue which must be addressed.

Yes, I wasn't happy about Thor's Hammer at all. For my melee-focused Ranger, it is a better choice than Io's Bow. And for virtually every other class it is also the best choice for both melee and ranged.

Kirk Bauer wrote: Yes, I wasn't happy about Thor's Hammer at all. For my melee-focused Ranger, it is a better choice than Io's Bow. And for virtually every other class it is also the best choice for both melee and ranged.

How come?

The majority of slots for my group aren't "best in slot" (no Legendary other than CoA for instance), and we're doing great on Hardcore level. That's one reason why we stopped playing Nightmare, because there was pressure to keep upgrading token slots to keep up with the monster power levels. I'm glad we're out of that endless cycle.

jon wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote: Yes, I wasn't happy about Thor's Hammer at all. For my melee-focused Ranger, it is a better choice than Io's Bow. And for virtually every other class it is also the best choice for both melee and ranged.

How come?

Why is it the best choice for most classes? Because it is an awesome thrown weapon (which means it gets your STR bonus added in) and can be used for both melee and ranged by every class.

Why do I dislike it? Because it is the best choice for just about every weapon and every class, therefore decreasing build variety.

Kirk Bauer wrote:

jon wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote: Yes, I wasn't happy about Thor's Hammer at all. For my melee-focused Ranger, it is a better choice than Io's Bow. And for virtually every other class it is also the best choice for both melee and ranged.

How come?

Why is it the best choice for most classes? Because it is an awesome thrown weapon (which means it gets your STR bonus added in) and can be used for both melee and ranged by every class.

Why do I dislike it? Because it is the best choice for just about every weapon and every class, therefore decreasing build variety.

At least it's not used much by monks, seeing that it's not flurry-of-blow compatible.

*Edit: I am saying this with slight sarcasm, as this is the only class I see that does not benefit from using Thor's.

Phrash wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote:

jon wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote: Yes, I wasn't happy about Thor's Hammer at all. For my melee-focused Ranger, it is a better choice than Io's Bow. And for virtually every other class it is also the best choice for both melee and ranged.

How come?

Why is it the best choice for most classes? Because it is an awesome thrown weapon (which means it gets your STR bonus added in) and can be used for both melee and ranged by every class.

Why do I dislike it? Because it is the best choice for just about every weapon and every class, therefore decreasing build variety.

At least it's not used much by monks, seeing that it's not flurry-of-blow compatible.

*Edit: I am saying this with slight sarcasm, as this is the only class I see that does not benefit from using Thor's.

Give it a couple of years and there will be a better weapon token created. Maybe in five or six years people will have it will be on clearance sale.

I'm approaching slot lock on my build in several spots.

It's going to take something spectacular to break the Icecrag Hero and Earcuff of Orbits combo for me. What could possibly outshine Surtr's in my waist slot? Or Boots of the Four Winds. I could keep going.

Thor's Hammer. That wasn't any easy choice for me. Welfor s would have been better for melee. Using Thor's my ranged attack moved from pathetic to pedestrian. But with Epic difficulty, I may have moved back into pathetic.

Kirk Bauer wrote: I have the same concerns and would also like to see more variety in builds. I have had discussions with Jeff about some future possibilities that might help out in this area, but I have no idea if/when any of them might happen. But it is something that is worth bringing up during future token development (that will be happening pretty soon on the forums I'm sure for 2019).

From my perspective, it isn't ideal to have any one token be the only good choice for a given slot on a given class. And especially not for a bunch of classes. I would love to see each class have at least two solid build choices, or ultimately 24 pretty different but very solid builds.

You get more of this in some classes than others. There are serious ranged Ranger builds and serious Melee Ranger builds. There are polymorph-focused Druids. I have seen Melee-focused Wizards.

I find it amusing that the ranged ranger and poly druid are your examples of classes with multiple build options, as those are the two classes that i have spent YEARS pushing for items to make those viable.

So, lets come up with other builds for all classes and keep coming up with items to make them a reality.