TOPIC: Of INT and Tomes

So I wanted to create a separate talking thread for this, since I have seen it brought up multiple times already, and it has been around for many years.

That is the issue of INT. The platypus of TD attributes. Beloved by wizards, though even they do not know why. We have three tokens (to my knowledge) that boost it. One token (again, that I know) that requires it. It needs a boost. It needs a purpose. And I have the answer(s). Or maybe not.

Anyway.

1) Skill test damage - Give the Wizards their INT bonus instead of a flat +3 when they pass the skill test. That gives them more incentive to memorize, and a decent damage boost, if their INT is high enough. (One could also make the same case for WIS for the Druid and Cleric). Add a new box (or repurpose some of the lesser used ones) on the party card to hold 'Skill Check Bonus'. That could also open up the potential for other tokens to boost or use that value...

2) Bonus spells - In many versions of D&D, having a higher casting stat netted you bonus spell slots. It would not be that hard to do so here. Just include extra boxes, with a number over them; that number being the minimum INT (or again, WIS for Druid/Cleric) to get that box. If you don't qualify, the coach fills it in up front. Something like this (forgive my poor art skills)


3) Tomes - Tomes are a classic part of D&D. From enchanted spell books, to the infamous manuals that improve your stats. I propose (partly borrowed) a new tome slot. They represent books the character reads to gain new or improved abilities. But they have to be able to memorize and apply the information from the tome, and must periodically refresh their knowledge. A PC with an INT of 11+ can use one Tome. A PC with an INT of 17+ can equip two Tomes. And a PC with an INT of 25+ can equip three tomes.

And to fill those slots I suggest:

Tome of Reflex
+1 To Reflex saves
Usable by: All

Tome of Will
+1 To Will saves
Usable by: All

Tome of Fortitude
+1 To Fortitude saves
Usable by: All

Tome of Strikes and Strategies
+1 To STR and INT
Usable by: All

Tome of True Endurance
+1 To CON and WIS
Usable by: All

Tome of Wines and Sinew
+1 To DEX and CHA
Usable by: All

Tome of Quick Strike
+1 To Party Initiative, +2 to hit and damage in the first round of combat (melee/range)
Usable by: Barbarian, FIghter, Monk, Ranger, Paladin

Tome of Energy Control
+1 To damage/healing with spells, -2 damage from spells
Usable by: Bard, Cleric, Druid, Wizard

Tome of Exploits
Monster gets -1 to hit and AC after a successful Sneak Attack
Usable by: Rogue

Tome of Cleaving
A successful hit with a two-handed weapon does 5 damage to one other monster.
Usable by: Barbarian, Fighter

Tome of Radiant Channeling
+1 Sacred to damage with melee/spells
Usable by: Cleric, Monk, Paladin

Tome of Vibrato
While singing, if at least one melee attack hits a monster, it takes Sonic damage equal to your CHA bonus.
Usable by: Bard

(will there be shouting or silence... waits to see)

These are great ideas!

I think we have to be very careful, what with the +8 Wis charm out there, about giving out extra spells, particularly as the lenses of divine sight duplicate healing already.

This does not preclude the INT suggestions you've made.

perhaps one or the other (extra spells or tomes) to start with, and make sure it isn't too much.

Wade Schwendemann wrote: These are great ideas!

I think we have to be very careful, what with the +8 Wis charm out there, about giving out extra spells, particularly as the lenses of divine sight duplicate healing already.

This does not preclude the INT suggestions you've made.

perhaps one or the other (extra spells or tomes) to start with, and make sure it isn't too much.

Well, if the extra spells are just extra uses of the ones printed on the PC card, and there is a maximum (like my example stops at 24 INT), I don't think it would get too out of hand.

I also think these are great ideas! And I rarely play a Wizard class. Would love to see the intelligence stat have more of a purpose. And bring on the Tomes or Spellbooks!!

Xavon wrote: So I wanted to create a separate talking thread for this, since I have seen it brought up multiple times already, and it has been around for many years.

That is the issue of INT. The platypus of TD attributes. Beloved by wizards, though even they do not know why. We have three tokens (to my knowledge) that boost it. One token (again, that I know) that requires it. It needs a boost. It needs a purpose. And I have the answer(s). Of not.

Anyway.

1) Skill test damage - Give the Wizards their INT bonus instead of a flat +3 when they pass the skill test. That gives them more incentive to memorize, and a decent damage boost, if their INT is high enough. (One could also make the same case for WIS for the Druid and Cleric). Add a new box (or repurpose some of the lesser used ones) on the party card to hold 'Skill Check Bonus'. That could also open up the potential for other tokens to boost or use that value...

2) Bonus spells - In many versions of D&D, having a higher casting stat netted you bonus spell slots. It would not be that hard to do so here. Just include extra boxes, with a number over them; that number being the minimum INT (or again, WIS for Druid/Cleric) to get that box. If you don't qualify, the coach fills it in up front. Something like this (forgive my poor art skills)


3) Tomes - Tomes are a classic part of D&D. From enchanted spell books, to the infamous manuals that improve your stats. I propose (partly borrowed) a new tome slot. They represent books the character reads to gain new or improved abilities. But they have to be able to memorize and apply the information from the tome, and must periodically refresh their knowledge. An PC with an INT of 11+ can use one Tome. A PC with an INT of 17+ can equip two Tomes. And a PC with an INT of 25+ can equip three tomes.

And to fill those slots I suggest:

Tome of Refex
+1 To Reflex saves
Usable by: All

Tome of Will
+1 To Will saves
Usable by: All

Tome of Fortitude
+1 To Fortitude saves
Usable by: All

Tome of Strikes and Strategies
+1 To STR and INT
Usable by: All

Tome of True Endurance
+1 To CON and WIS
Usable by: All

Tome of Wines and Sinew
+1 To DEX and CHA
Usable by: All

Tome of Quick Strike
+1 To Party Initiative, +2 to hit and damage in the first round of combat (melee/range)
Usable by: Barbarian, FIghter, Monk, Ranger, Paladin

Tome of Energy Control
+1 To damage/healing with spells, -2 damage from spells
Usable by: Bard, Cleric, Druid, Wizard

Tome of Exploits
Monster gets -1 to hit and AC after a successful Sneak Attack
Usable by: Rogue

Tome of Cleaving
A successful hit with a two-handed weapon does 5 damage to one other monster.
Usable by: Barbarian, Fighter

Tome of Radiant Channeling
+1 Sacred to damage with melee/spells
Usable by: Cleric, Monk, Paladin

Tome of Vibrato
While singing, if at least one melee attack hits a monster, it takes Sonic damage equal to your CHA bonus.
Usable by: Bard

(will there be shouting or silence... waits to see)

These are creative and strike me as fun without being game breaking- nice work!

I love this. You have obviously given this a lot of thought and work. I appreciate what you have done here.
I particularly like the extra spell idea. One minor tweak I would suggest is to have the increasing spell level coincide with the increasing INT. So Frost dart would be 20 and burning hands would be 22. Finally I would say Scorching Ray not Cats Grace at 24.
My thinking is that Fire Dart and Scorching Ray are of the same element. I think it’s more thematic. I also think the increasing INT coinciding with spell level seems like natural selection occurring.

Xavon wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: These are great ideas!

I think we have to be very careful, what with the +8 Wis charm out there, about giving out extra spells, particularly as the lenses of divine sight duplicate healing already.

This does not preclude the INT suggestions you've made.

perhaps one or the other (extra spells or tomes) to start with, and make sure it isn't too much.

Well, if the extra spells are just extra uses of the ones printed on the PC card, and there is a maximum (like my example stops at 24 INT), I don't think it would get too out of hand.

I agree.

The tome slot also needs to include Carter's Tome, Tome of Recall, etc.

either way, they are great ideas. I love the extra spells or additional damage, though that could get tough on the DMs.

Bob Chasan wrote: I love this. You have obviously given this a lot of thought and work. I appreciate what you have done here.
I particularly like the extra spell idea. One minor tweak I would suggest is to have the increasing spell level coincide with the increasing INT. So Frost dart would be 20 and burning hands would be 22. Finally I would say Scorching Ray not Cats Grace at 24.
My thinking is that Fire Dart and Scorching Ray are of the same element. I think it’s more thematic. I also think the increasing INT coinciding with spell level seems like natural selection occurring.

I wouldn't actually want Cat's Grace as the extra Lvl 2 spell. It was just the only one I could make fit with image. Technically, I would have went with Frost Ray first.

And I did it in the style of D&D, as in it goes in cycles instead of all the low level bonus spells being at the low stats. But the other way could work, too.

Xavon wrote:

Bob Chasan wrote: I love this. You have obviously given this a lot of thought and work. I appreciate what you have done here.
I particularly like the extra spell idea. One minor tweak I would suggest is to have the increasing spell level coincide with the increasing INT. So Frost dart would be 20 and burning hands would be 22. Finally I would say Scorching Ray not Cats Grace at 24.
My thinking is that Fire Dart and Scorching Ray are of the same element. I think it’s more thematic. I also think the increasing INT coinciding with spell level seems like natural selection occurring.

I wouldn't actually want Cat's Grace as the extra Lvl 2 spell. It was just the only one I could make fit with image. Technically, I would have went with Frost Ray first.

And I did it in the style of D&D, as in it goes in cycles instead of all the low level bonus spells being at the low stats. But the other way could work, too.

I like the way you did it as well, with the call back to earlier D+D.

The spells we can debate on which to increase once we have the concept in place.

Very creative. Have always wanted some mechanic around tomes/spellbooks and the value of intelligence to be added. I'd be happy with this version.

Way to go! I’ve always loved the tomes idea and appreciate the thoughtfulness you put into it. I wouldn’t mind more than three tome slots, and I think it would be super fun if some of the tomes could be designed for non-stat dungeon effects too. For example, anybody who equips a Tome of Astral Studies is given some extra bit of helpful info for use in the N1 dungeon during the course of the adventure.

The extra spell idea is cool too. We haven’t heard much recently about upgrades to class cards, but that seems like the logical time for rolling something like this out.

Really hoping TPTB picks up both of these ideas. Good work!

I love all of the ideas. Obviously something similar should be done for WIS as well.