TOPIC: Build characters for Saving or for To Hit bonuses?

So, our crew this year decided to try hardcore for Underdark Combat for a friend who has wanted to do a hardcore run for like forever.

Well, we weren't quite prepared. Everyone stayed alive until the last room thanks to the Druid and myself the Cleric, but we expended a lot of healing tokens and brought 4 people back from the dead.

We were setup more for saving throws (which didn't seem to matter) than to hit bonuses. Our poor monk had to slide a perfect 20 to even hit anything. Our Ranger wasn't much better off.

For those who run Hardcore and Nightmare, what kind of build do you do for your character? Is it To Hit based? Saving throw based? A combo? Or something else entirely?

Even though we told our friend never again, he is wanting to try again with different builds. And the more I think about it, I don't think we did too bad for a first try on hardcore. At least everyone lived to the last room and got a chance to try and defeat the monster.

We did Sable Gauntlet (combat) on Normal mode, and I think we were only unsuccessful in one room? Or maybe we got it at the last minute...Gen Con is a blur of fun. Anyway, everyone lived and no one was ever in any danger. A lot of laughter was to be had, btu it did seem extremely easy after the nightmare that was hardcore.

Also, for those who do sealed runs...how much fun is that? How successful are you? I assume you run Normal? We are also considering one run on Normal and one sealed run, but maybe using the sealed packs from both dungeons (we just wouldn't open the first dungeon packs until the coaching room for the second dungeon). We are worried we won't have enough of either weapons or armor with just 1 pack each.

I end up doing a combo. I always keep saves high as I can. To hit is a priority over damage for me and I did give up some damage for AC.

I try to get my saves as high as possible, but to hit is definitely my priority.

I learned with the green with envy run that Hit is essential. I was using a Lyre of Rage for the extra hit buff, and heard the DM say "Hit because of Bard" sooo many times

I was sucked into the void by the cow, the carrion crawler paralyzed one of our best fighters, and we had a few players fighting spiders with their eyes closed, so don't neglect saves.

But for most combats, my motto is "dead critters don't swing back" so to-hit and damage bonuses of multiple types is mandatory as well.

It's really a combination of the two. But here's a basic breakdown:

To Hit is Essential
The toughest monsters in Normal have about a 21 AC. Many only have 18. Hardcore tends to be in the 20-25 range. So you need to prioritize to-hit until you've gotten where you can consistently hit the monsters at your difficulty. Because no hit is no damage. If you're really good at sliding and your teamwork is solid, you can safely reduce your to-hit in exchange for other boosts.

Saves are Essential
But as you may have seen in Sable Gauntlet failing a Fort or Will save can mean instant death/being mind controlled. Reflex saves tend to be less important, but failing one can still ruin your day. So you need to keep saves high. Fortunately, saves and to-hit tend to be in different slots.

Ultimately, there shouldn't be a conflict between to-hit and saves. You just need to fill in all slots with the correct gear for the class.

As others have said, first focus for non-spellcasters should be on to-hit; if you can't hit it, you can't kill it. Then damage, then AC, then saves.

Now, TrueGrind would probably be a bit different.

To hit is a tricky beast. It really is a curve as to what is ideal. In my experience once you get to about a +10 - +12 you have all the to-hit you need for everything except probably Nightmare Mode. Anything below that and your hit ratio will drop exponentially.

My Paladin Has a +10 to hit (Mostly +12 thanks to our Bard) and I only miss if I slide terribly or get knocked around. Our Barbarian Used to have a +18 to hit and altered his build this year to drop it to +12 in favor of more damage. His hit ratio had no noticeable difference. But his damage output is impressive.

Saves are a bit more difficult to quantify. They seem to come up less and less every year in favor of some sort of auto-damage. But when they do come up they tend to be very important.

So ultimately to-hit will come up far more often, but a failed save can ruin everyone day. BTW I recommend preference to Will save when you have to choose. Fort usually means you get a nasty effect that you have a chance of curing with the right token, Reflex usually means damage, but Will saves usually mean you are out of the fight and very often attacking your party.

As a final note: Have your party discuss sliding strategy. It can make a big difference. Higher numbers tend to be further back on the board. Let the people with the lowest to-hit slide for higher numbers first. This leaves the lower numbers uncluttered for the people behind them. If you have someone who is a good slider have them slide last. The can maneuver around the clutter and try to bump people around where needed. A well organized group of sliders really will have a higher damage output.

Davoruk wrote: To hit is a tricky beast. It really is a curve as to what is ideal. In my experience once you get to about a +10 - +12 you have all the to-hit you need for everything except probably Nightmare Mode. Anything below that and your hit ratio will drop exponentially.

My Paladin Has a +10 to hit (Mostly +12 thanks to our Bard) and I only miss if I slide terribly or get knocked around. Our Barbarian Used to have a +18 to hit and altered his build this year to drop it to +12 in favor of more damage. His hit ratio had no noticeable difference. But his damage output is impressive.

Saves are a bit more difficult to quantify. They seem to come up less and less every year in favor of some sort of auto-damage. But when they do come up they tend to be very important.

So ultimately to-hit will come up far more often, but a failed save can ruin everyone day. BTW I recommend preference to Will save when you have to choose. Fort usually means you get a nasty effect that you have a chance of curing with the right token, Reflex usually means damage, but Will saves usually mean you are out of the fight and very often attacking your party.

As a final note: Have your party discuss sliding strategy. It can make a big difference. Higher numbers tend to be further back on the board. Let the people with the lowest to-hit slide for higher numbers first. This leaves the lower numbers uncluttered for the people behind them. If you have someone who is a good slider have them slide last. The can maneuver around the clutter and try to bump people around where needed. A well organized group of sliders really will have a higher damage output.

Bravo, well said!

MetaphoricDragon wrote: I learned with the green with envy run that Hit is essential. I was using a Lyre of Rage for the extra hit buff, and heard the DM say "Hit because of Bard" sooo many times

This, we did hardcore with nothing but uncommons and commons. We made it to room 7 where ultimately aside from 2 players could not hit on something besides a critical.

If I'm making a combat build my priority is usually like this:

Saves > +dam > +hit > hitpoints > AC

This is how it is for nightmare. The fact is that you almost always have HP and various protections in nightmare builds that the only thing which could possible take you out in one shot is save or die. I also slide pretty well so I'm at least fairly confident that I can land in the 17+ zone at least most of the time. Since building +dam usually results in some +hit no matter what due ot strength, that's usually good enough to land even on nightmare.

henwy wrote: If I'm making a combat build my priority is usually like this:

Saves > +dam > +hit > hitpoints > AC

This is how it is for nightmare. The fact is that you almost always have HP and various protections in nightmare builds that the only thing which could possible take you out in one shot is save or die. I also slide pretty well so I'm at least fairly confident that I can land in the 17+ zone at least most of the time. Since building +dam usually results in some +hit no matter what due ot strength, that's usually good enough to land even on nightmare.

Bear in mind that low AC means you could die if you get hit multiple times in a row.