TOPIC: Dungeon Difficulties Suggestion

Given the crazy, nearly unhittable ACs for multiple monsters this year I have a suggestion for next year (and the future)

Balance the HP and AC for each difficulty on a static token set.

Normal - Fully party with Uncommon Tokens and Bardsong, 3 rounds of combat, average side of 10

Hardcore - Full party with Rare tokens and Bardsong, 3 rounds of combat, average slide of 12

Nightmare - Fully party with Ultra Rare tokens and Bardsong, 3 rounds of combat, average slide of 13

EPIC - Only available by write in, not on party card, Full party with Best in Slot gear, no Bardsong (to allow minor build variance), 4 rounds of combat, average slide of 14


This way we don't see truly disturbing fights like the Mind Flayer decimating parties on all difficulties or non 1% build teams getting buried on Nightmare runs.

Let EPIC be the actual hard runs and make it only doable via printed card or manual write in so only those who know the stakes will try it.

If you add Epic stats for a creature thats another set of stats for each monster that would probably rarely get used.

After DMing this year the normal and hardcore seemed just about right for my monster, I had the Salamander this year, but the Nightmare groups were pretty much a mixed bag. The super geared groups usually blew it away fast, while the slightly less geared groups finished it nick of time style, and anyone else couldnt do it.

It seems to me that Nightmare should always be the most difficult mode, and what I would probably do is make Nightmare so difficult that it would be virtually impossible to beat without gearing the entire party out to maximize combat effectiveness. Essentially forcing parties to decide whats more important to them, treasure or bragging rights. If you want treasure then play through on Hardcore, if you want a real fight then you play on Nightmare and you better come prepared to fight.

I thought the difficulty was just fine personally. I only ended up running two nightmare combats but both were perfectly fine in the end and I didn't find it all that difficult and we had people in each run who didn't even have full equip slots covered. I mean, really? An average slide of 13? If you're not doing better than that you shouldn't be playing nightmare no matter what your equipment is. You can only force things with money so far.

I did two NM runs and an HC run. I thought the combat difficulties were appropriate.

henwy wrote: I thought the difficulty was just fine personally. I only ended up running two nightmare combats but both were perfectly fine in the end and I didn't find it all that difficult and we had people in each run who didn't even have full equip slots covered. I mean, really? An average slide of 13? If you're not doing better than that you shouldn't be playing nightmare no matter what your equipment is. You can only force things with money so far.

That's exactly what I mean, Didn't find nightmare all that difficult. It should be. It's Nightmare. Two people weren't even fully equipped? Sounds like Nightmare is still too easy to me.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Given the crazy, nearly unhittable ACs for multiple monsters this year I have a suggestion for next year (and the future)

Balance the HP and AC for each difficulty on a static token set.

Normal - Fully party with Uncommon Tokens and Bardsong, 3 rounds of combat, average side of 10

Hardcore - Full party with Rare tokens and Bardsong, 3 rounds of combat, average slide of 12

Nightmare - Fully party with Ultra Rare tokens and Bardsong, 3 rounds of combat, average slide of 13

EPIC - Only available by write in, not on party card, Full party with Best in Slot gear, no Bardsong (to allow minor build variance), 4 rounds of combat, average slide of 14


This way we don't see truly disturbing fights like the Mind Flayer decimating parties on all difficulties or non 1% build teams getting buried on Nightmare runs.

Let EPIC be the actual hard runs and make it only doable via printed card or manual write in so only those who know the stakes will try it.

I did think the normal stats for the Salamander were a little higher than average this year but that was room 4 when things start to get a little more serious. She also had large hit boxes though and even newbie groups were taking her out regularly, she usually only survived if people were getting truly unlucky with the damage wheels.

Steven Stoner wrote:

henwy wrote: I thought the difficulty was just fine personally. I only ended up running two nightmare combats but both were perfectly fine in the end and I didn't find it all that difficult and we had people in each run who didn't even have full equip slots covered. I mean, really? An average slide of 13? If you're not doing better than that you shouldn't be playing nightmare no matter what your equipment is. You can only force things with money so far.

That's exactly what I mean, Didn't find nightmare all that difficult. It should be. It's Nightmare. Two people weren't even fully equipped? Sounds like Nightmare is still too easy to me.

Not sure about that. My NM groups were victorious, and yours might have been, but not all were. Also, I think the number of NM runs might have been down this year. Just basing that on anecdotal evidence.

I had tons of people tell me nightmare had been bumped up too much or that it was too hard this year. I figure the difficulty for nightmare should be set at the understanding that the average person is all purps. Obviously some will also have relics and legendaries but that would be above the curve and some will still have some reds in their build which would be below. Given that average equipment starting point, I also think that on nightmare difficulty you should require at least a 17 slide or better to hit. I haven't run the numbers but if a purped out fighter has for an average build a +12 to hit and the bard is bardsong'ing then your generic nightmare level monster should have an AC in the 31 range. It's not like there aren't plenty of ways to make a monster more hittable through tokens, skills, and strategy and honestly if you can't get a couple 17+ out of your party in a round it might be time to go down a difficulty. My group has been using a sunder strategy for years now, but there are lots of other options. So far we've never had to Flank a Sunder/Tanglefoot but the idea has always been one of the options in the back of my mind.

Apparently the GT runs had a really rough go on Nightmare level so after that, word quickly spread that Nightmare had been ramped up.

I did 4 Nightmare runs and did not find any of them particularly hard. It was actually fairly on par with last year's Nightmare difficulty level (despite Nightmare supposedly being harder this year).

I did notice that the push/puzzle fail damage was slightly higher, which required more healing. And the exploding egg sacs was a bit annoying.

However, each run we breezed through the final boss, mainly due to quadruple Stunning Fist.

bpsymington wrote: Not sure about that. My NM groups were victorious, and yours might have been, but not all were. Also, I think the number of NM runs might have been down this year. Just basing that on anecdotal evidence.

I would agree, I think the number of NM groups was down this year after word got out it was harder.

henwy wrote: I had tons of people tell me nightmare had been bumped up too much or that it was too hard this year. I figure the difficulty for nightmare should be set at the understanding that the average person is all purps. Obviously some will also have relics and legendaries but that would be above the curve and some will still have some reds in their build which would be below. Given that average equipment starting point, I also think that on nightmare difficulty you should require at least a 17 slide or better to hit. I haven't run the numbers but if a purped out fighter has for an average build a +12 to hit and the bard is bardsong'ing then your generic nightmare level monster should have an AC in the 31 range. It's not like there aren't plenty of ways to make a monster more hittable through tokens, skills, and strategy and honestly if you can't get a couple 17+ out of your party in a round it might be time to go down a difficulty. My group has been using a sunder strategy for years now, but there are lots of other options. So far we've never had to Flank a Sunder/Tanglefoot but the idea has always been one of the options in the back of my mind.

Most groups that run on NM are running relics and legendaries, I dont think I had a single group running it where they were just using URs. At this point I think NM has to be focused around the Relic/Legendary Area or groups are just going to continue steam rolling it, and HC around the UR and/or UR/Relic area.

For the record, it was on May 19th, 2015 that Jeff announced Nightmare would be more difficult this year .

Furthermore, coaches were told during training to warn any groups contemplating Nightmare that it was more difficult.

This increased difficulty was not something TD was trying to keep secret.