TOPIC: I think we have a problem

While DMing, playing and hanging around the con, I heard one universal complaint from well over 15 different people. Newer or lower geared players felt like the higher geared players ruined their fun in normal mode runs. Personally saw several mixed groups where the new players gave a “why am I even here” look as the monster was one-shotted.

They complained about both feeling useless in combat as they all miss on the first round and the monster still ends up dead, and people who have obviously done the puzzle before solving it in 1-2 minutes. Short of a cattle prod, I can’t think of a solution for the second problem. I believe the first problem is easily solvable. We have already tried Nightmare runs, but due to ticket scarcity, this did not work.

Having Beginner runs where the stats for each character are capped at a reasonable value would solve the problem (at least in those runs), or even capping the stats in all normal mode runs. Higher geared players could still participate, use their shiny tokens, get their loot, but not dominate the combats.

I also don’t think people are dominating combat maliciously, they’re just trying to do their best. What would result in a high-five in hardcore or nightmare, is met with a meh, pay to win, in normal.

What do you guys think?

Be sure to see this thread because it is similar.

One overly geared respectful player will not likely one-shot a normal monster. Certainly 5 could do it. I am sure though this discussion needs to include the 5 highly geared players and 5 newbies where the geared players want to play hardcore (Nightmare is unlikely now).

With the elimination of Hardcore/Nightmare tickets I am not sure we can come up with rules that would work here but I will wait to see all the ideas because there are just some bad people and rules won't that.

Ed

PS - what those players don't realize is they are hurting the longevity of the game.

As an idea it is interesting but actually doing it is a disaster.

We tried specialty runs a couple of years ago with scheduled NIGHTMARE runs. We had a lot of new players buy Nightmare tickets because that was all that was available. I remember one run where I showed up ready for Nightmare and had 9 first time players (with a bag of tokens each) in the run with me. We had to adjust that run to prevent having 9 unhappy new players.

In addition, as a coach, needing to know an additional set of rules that depends on which run you are on is WAY TOO much work. And telling players they cant use their tokens generates a TON of problems.

I proposed an idea here: www.truedungeon.com/forum?func=view&catid=580&id=228842

I'd like to hear feedback on that.

my best advice is to come here before tickets go on sale and find a group..there are some people that just get caught up in the moment...

or buy all 10 tickets and then find people(new) that want to go on a run...there was a wait list a mile long


if there is a "new player only slot" for tickets...it will just be like the nightmare ones from previous years...the wrong people will still sign up , because it is the only slot that is open for them

New players, by definition, will almost never come to the forums before their first run.

All tokens may be used, it's only the stats that are capped, everyone can sign up for these stat capped runs and more importantly not dominate.

The other possibility is having the DM's enforce a max damage per hit.

I know most people think that "they're not ruining" other people's runs and trying to be as nice as possible. I had a long talk with several people and the consensus was that by their even being someone with +20 or so damage in the group (even if they only hit once), they still felt it affected them, and they had a bad time as a result.

Cavor wrote: New players, by definition, will almost never come to the forums before their first run.

All tokens may be used, it's only the stats that are capped, everyone can sign up for these stat capped runs and more importantly not dominate.

The other possibility is having the DM's enforce a max damage per hit.

I know most people think that "they're not ruining" other people's runs and trying to be as nice as possible. I had a long talk with several people and the consensus was that by their even being someone with +20 or so damage in the group (even if they only hit once), they still felt it affected them, and they had a bad time as a result.

i dont think there is an easy answer...as a coach I ask who has played before...and who has done this dungeon...I try to remind them to be courteous of the other players....We cant force them to..they paid just as much as the new players for the run
so all anyone can do is ask...by doing your suggestion (for the dms) that could give the veteran players just as bad of time as the newbies ...it is a no win situation...

Cavor wrote: I know most people think that "they're not ruining" other people's runs and trying to be as nice as possible. I had a long talk with several people and the consensus was that by their even being someone with +20 or so damage in the group (even if they only hit once), they still felt it affected them, and they had a bad time as a result.

That was one of the key reasons I usually ran my Druid. I could keep the party alive and let them fail a puzzle or combat without always dying.

Ed

The big problem (as I see it) with the idea of capping stats is the spread your going to get between even an optimized red/green character and someone running with just a starter pack.

I know its going to sound like I'm arguing from a biased position but wherever you cap things your going to run the risk of ruining someones fun.

I wonder if there is any possibility Jeff could allow more full runs to be pre-sold? Obviously, there has to be some sort of limit. But if more groups here on the forums could pre-organize runs and be assured of getting slots, I think it would make many veterans less likely to grab slots on random runs that are likely to have new players.

Another thing would be more opportunities like WYC for us to slake our TD thirst throughout the year. But that has additional costs ($$$, volunteer power, prep time, etc), and it seems there might be some limits to what Jeff is allowed to do outside GC due to whatever agreements he has with them.

Obviously, there are flaws to either of the above. but maybe they'll spark some more ideas.

If you really want a crazy idea though, here is my pie-in-the-sky dream (that has so many holes in it that calling it swiss cheese would be optimistic):

Jeff (and the Carbondale crew) move to Indy, get a warehouse near the convention center, and set up TD permanently. Disconnect from GC, but have it open during GC and other geek conventions held downtown (or once a quarter, once a month, every other weekend?). In additionto volunteers already in the area, get in touch with local theater groups to offer opportunities for people to practice their arts (actors and actresses as NPCs, stage crew as blue hands, etc). The hope being that the added cost of a permanent location might be offset by selling more tickets. You'd also be able to have a smaller crew to perform setup (since they'd have more time), and maybe allow for some effects that Jeff can't get away with in the convention center. Depending on space, old dungeons could be set up cycling throughout the year. XP would only be available for the current year's dungeon.

Of course it will never happen, but a guy can dream.

I ran 1 normal run this year, and would certainly be in favor of capping +damage. All other stats could be true to the tokens that the character has, and will not effect others.

I think a stat cap for normal would be okay. I ran with 9 new players (5 friends, 4 I didn't know) for one run. I let them select their class first, and then took some gear off.
I sat back and let them do puzzles I already knew. For treasure rooms, I offered them the answer if they wanted it if it got close to the end. One observation is that it seems treasure rooms mean more to experienced players vs new ones who do not fully understand the tokens. If one wants to reduce the number of potential bad experiences because of the treasure factor, one could look at eliminating the treasure stamp (at least for nonlethal/hardcore). Everyone in the run would get 3 treasure chips for playing (plus enhancers, completion token, etc).